Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Million Dollar TTRPG Crowdfunders
Most Anticipated Tabletop RPGs Of The Year
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
ShortQuests -- Pocket Sized Adventures! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed for 1-2 game sessions.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Is Dual Spells Feat balanced?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Benben" data-source="post: 1291181" data-attributes="member: 110"><p>Playing devils advocate, the Dual Spell has a prerequisite of 2 metamagic feats, which would mean a higher cost than Arcane Prep. + Quicken Spell.</p><p> </p><p>I'm not sure that this feat is all that bad. The halving of caster level neuters damage spells, and keeps the especially bad instant kills out of the hands of non-Epic casters. The caster level restriction also works to hinder abuse against high level opponents with Spell Resistance.</p><p> </p><p>The charm person problem doesn't seem very bad. Casters will probably have access to higher level variants. I haven't run the math but in a lot of cases I would rather cast a single DC 19 Charm Monster than two Charm Persons at DC 15 against a single target. For multiple targets I would rather toss out a Mass Hold Person than just two Hold Persons. The higher save and extra targets is well worth the higher necessary caster level. Although I just noticed that there is no Charm Person, Mass variant in the SRD. </p><p> </p><p>Actually, Dual spell seems to target the middle point between the normal and mass versions of most spells. Its major advantage is allowing mid and high level casters do something with their lower level spell slots.</p><p> </p><p>Defensive and Buffing spells do get a boost out of this, but 3.5 gives mass versions of many buffs, and again Dual Spell just helps the middle point between having access to Bull’s Strength and not Mass Bull’s Strength. Defensive spells definitely get a boost, Spell Turning vs. Dualed Stoneskin+Minor Globe gives the general advantage to the Dualed spells. That being said what other metamagic feats are good for improving defensive and buffing spells? Empower and extend see a lot less use for buffs and defensive spells than they did in 3.0. As a game design element I like this feat for adding a little padding to a well worn area.</p><p> </p><p>Summoning class spells are my biggest fear. Druids at 14th level+ would be able to bring in swarms of Unicorns for swift healing and poison control. This feat would work better by stating that only spells with a casting time of 1 action or less qualify for the feat.</p><p> </p><p>Classes that prepare their spells are not helped by this feat at all. Binding spell slots together drains their resources faster and limits their already limited flexibility.</p><p> </p><p>Spontaneous casters seem to be the big problem. 3.5 stepped away from the 2 spells/round philosophy and bringing in Arcane Prep as a legacy feat can fix that problem. In fact it’s a better choice for them with the lower feat cost, and being able to move and cast. The ½ caster level is bigger hit to them with their retarded spell level advancement. A Wizard needs to be 18th level to dual 5th level spells, while a sorcerer needs to be 20th. </p><p> </p><p>With the restriction that only spells with a casting time of 1 action or less qualify for the feat, then I don’t see Dual Spell being any more attractive than Twin Spell or Quicken.</p><p> </p><p>Edits for Formatting and Colours.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Benben, post: 1291181, member: 110"] Playing devils advocate, the Dual Spell has a prerequisite of 2 metamagic feats, which would mean a higher cost than Arcane Prep. + Quicken Spell. I'm not sure that this feat is all that bad. The halving of caster level neuters damage spells, and keeps the especially bad instant kills out of the hands of non-Epic casters. The caster level restriction also works to hinder abuse against high level opponents with Spell Resistance. The charm person problem doesn't seem very bad. Casters will probably have access to higher level variants. I haven't run the math but in a lot of cases I would rather cast a single DC 19 Charm Monster than two Charm Persons at DC 15 against a single target. For multiple targets I would rather toss out a Mass Hold Person than just two Hold Persons. The higher save and extra targets is well worth the higher necessary caster level. Although I just noticed that there is no Charm Person, Mass variant in the SRD. Actually, Dual spell seems to target the middle point between the normal and mass versions of most spells. Its major advantage is allowing mid and high level casters do something with their lower level spell slots. Defensive and Buffing spells do get a boost out of this, but 3.5 gives mass versions of many buffs, and again Dual Spell just helps the middle point between having access to Bull’s Strength and not Mass Bull’s Strength. Defensive spells definitely get a boost, Spell Turning vs. Dualed Stoneskin+Minor Globe gives the general advantage to the Dualed spells. That being said what other metamagic feats are good for improving defensive and buffing spells? Empower and extend see a lot less use for buffs and defensive spells than they did in 3.0. As a game design element I like this feat for adding a little padding to a well worn area. Summoning class spells are my biggest fear. Druids at 14th level+ would be able to bring in swarms of Unicorns for swift healing and poison control. This feat would work better by stating that only spells with a casting time of 1 action or less qualify for the feat. Classes that prepare their spells are not helped by this feat at all. Binding spell slots together drains their resources faster and limits their already limited flexibility. Spontaneous casters seem to be the big problem. 3.5 stepped away from the 2 spells/round philosophy and bringing in Arcane Prep as a legacy feat can fix that problem. In fact it’s a better choice for them with the lower feat cost, and being able to move and cast. The ½ caster level is bigger hit to them with their retarded spell level advancement. A Wizard needs to be 18th level to dual 5th level spells, while a sorcerer needs to be 20th. With the restriction that only spells with a casting time of 1 action or less qualify for the feat, then I don’t see Dual Spell being any more attractive than Twin Spell or Quicken. Edits for Formatting and Colours. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Is Dual Spells Feat balanced?
Top