Is Dungeons and Dragons Black and White?

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

To me it seems like it isn`t always the case. While Good and Evil are real, non-abstract forces, most beings that are of a given alignment aren`t embodient of it. For example a greedy shopkeeper that never killed anyone won`t be anywhere close to evil incarnated such as a Demon( despite the fact that they would detect just the same through Detect Evil spell, something I find not very logical).
Another thing: monsters that are usually evil. In the half-orc`s description in PLH, it is mentioned that Orcs and Humans often have peaceful contact with each other, for example trading in the times of peace. I find it inconsistent and disappointing that such a depth is missing from The Monster`s Manual, where Orcs and Goblins are nothing more than monsters to be killed on sight. Actually I don`t see any major diffrence between CE Human barbarians that raid others and CE Orc barbarians that do just the same. In my campaign world some of such tribes have even merged together, creating a very large population of Half-Orcs( and they even temporary allied themselves with some good-aligned powers during the recent Nilfgaard War). There is also a powerful Hobgoblin Empire( it existed before Kalamar Setting was published) that was in peace with its neighbours for over a century, benefitting from controlling the trade route to Eastern Continent through The Ashakari Desert, until the current ambitious and crafty Emperor decided that with neighbouring Powers being weakened from The Nilfgaard War, the time has come for him to launch a glorious campaign of conquest, with the help of his mighty allies- Blue Dragons and Efreeti...
Another interesting thing to consider is a one step rule for Priest`s alignment. How to treat a LN Cleric of Hextor- this guy isn`t a petty Tyrant, he just believes that a very strict and firm rulership is needed for the betterment of all. Clerics of Helm, FR Deity of Guardians, can be a LG Protectror of Innocent, or a LE fanatic enforcer of Law.
So my campaign world has areas of Black and White( and therefore place for heroes), but there is much Grey. How is it in your game?

 

[Crothian]

My world is grey, with very little black and white. I don't place in NPcs that the character will like or hate, I create NPCs with good and bad qualities and the PCs can decide who they like and hate based off the interactions with them.

 

[jmucchiello]

While alignment good and evil aren't black and white as you are using the term, I feel that the important part of alignment in fantasy settings and D&D in particular is that good and evil are real things. The reason spells can have a good spell descriptor is because "good" is real quantifiable thing in the fantasy world. Detect good will tell you just how good something in.

Now, while the shopkeeper and the Marilith are both evil, detect evil will tell you that the Marilith is much more evil than the man (unless we're talking about a shopkeeper that slaughters people in his sparetime). But this is the kind of thing that does not need a defined mechanic (the marilith is chaotic-4/evil-9 while the shopkeeper is chaotic-1/evil-2) since it usually isn't that important. If the party is after the shopkeeper for poisoning a bad customer or the marilith for slaughtering a village, from "good's" point of view, both must be avenged.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com

 

[Voadam]

To me it seems like it isn`t always the case. While Good and Evil are real, non-abstract forces, most beings that are of a given alignment aren`t embodient of it. For example a greedy shopkeeper that never killed anyone won`t be anywhere close to evil incarnated such as a Demon( despite the fact that they would detect just the same through Detect Evil spell, something I find not very logical).

They aren't detectable as the same under the spell unless he is really a super high level merchant or a minor demon.

Detect Evil

Divination
Level: Clr 1, Rgr 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The character can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long the character studies a particular area or subject:

1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.

2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the strength of the strongest evil aura present. If the character is of good alignment, the strongest evil aura’s strength is "overwhelming" (see below), and the strength is at least twice the character's character level, the character is stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. While the character is stunned, the character can’t act, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack the character.

3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If an aura is outside the character's line of sight, then the character discerns its direction but not its exact location.

Aura Strength: An aura’s evil power and strength depend on the type of evil creature or object that the character is detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level.

Creature/Object Evil Power
--------------- ----------
Evil creature HD / 5
Undead creature HD / 2
Evil elemental HD / 2
Evil magic item
or spell Caster level / 2
Evil outsider HD
Cleric of an
evil deity Level
Evil Power Aura Strength
---------- -------------
Lingering Dim
1 or less Faint
2–4 Moderate
5–10 Strong
11+ Overwhelming
If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.

Length Aura Lingers: How long the aura lingers depends on its original strength:

Original Strength Duration
----------------- --------
Faint 1d6 minutes
Moderate 1d6 X 10 minutes
Strong 1d6 hours
Overwhelming 1d6 days
Remember that animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil; this spell does not detect them.

Note: Each round, the character can turn to detect things in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

 

[Nightfall]

Plenty of Grey but there's always some black and white to it. For example, it's probably easier to have a cleric of Chardun work with a cleric of Hedrada when it concerns laws, even though you could do the same with a cleric of Corean...but it's a little odd.

 

[TiQuinn]

My campaign consists of shades of gray with a healthy smattering of creatures or individuals who are pure good or pure evil. I typically do not enforce alignment on PCs, and likewise, I don't always portray monsters as per the MM-stated alignment. IMC, the Orc tribes came together to form a militaristicly strong but politically unstable nation ruled by a Lawful Neutral Fighter backed by a powerful, self-serving Lawful Evil sorcerer who is quite content with being second in command. Orcs run the gamut of alignments but I'd say it's 45% evil - 45% neutral - 10% good in general. Alignments are more of an insight into characters personalities but are more of a game mechanic than an actual rule by which characters must act. Spells like Detect Evil or Good, or Prot. From Evil or Good work based on how I perceive the PC or NPC. I don't have to contend with PC paladin issues at the moment, but in the past, I have held them to a code of honor moreso than just alignment.

 

[Jeph]

In my present campaign setting, the only color is that of survival.

That sounds like it means something, doesn't it?

-Jeph

 

[Desdichado]

I find it hard to believe that D&D can be black and white when the alignment rules are the least understood and most often abused rules in the game, IMO.

Personally, I'd prefer to do away with it entirely. It's not too hard, but it does require you be methodical and not accidentally leave it in the mechanics somewhere.

 

[hammymchamham]

my gaming worlds have been of the color red (or what ever color monsters bleed)

When it comes to alignment, well, I did a campaign in Rokugan, and alignment didn't mean anything. Honor did, and that was black and white.

 

[barsoomcore]

The terms "Good" and "Evil" don't really have much meaning to me. I don't understand what they're supposed to mean except that "Good" is nice AND wins, and "Evil" is mean AND loses. I dunno, doesn't make any sense to me.

I chucked it all. I LIKE a world where the PCs don't have any way of knowing who can be trusted and who needs killin'. I find that terms like "Smart" and "Dumb" are much more helpful in defining characters than "Good" and "Evil".

On Barsoom, pretty much everyone thinks of themselves as good. The party encountered a horrible vampire goddess who became sort of friendly with them. She and they had a couple of common enemies of demi-god-like status, people who did horrible things, torture, slaughter all that. Of course, their new "friend" did exactly the same sorts of things and at one point they asked her what their enemies wanted.

Her answer: "They want exactly the same thing I want. They want to save the world."

She was sincere. She really wanted to save the world. From these bad guys. They, of course, wanted to save the world from HER. Torture, slaughter, abject humiliation of helpless innocents, these were just the means to that important and selfless end. Oh, and fun. But never mind.

The way I see it, people acquire power because they're afraid. Usually they're afraid of somebody else who has power. So they gather an army, learn magic, get gods on their side, whatever they have to do to protect themselves (and everyone they care about) from the perceived threat. In a world where one person can marshal sufficient destructive force to challenge entire nations, you end up with a variety of incredibly powerful beings, all of whom are trying to kill each other, trying to dance around and get the upper hand on each other. They can't ever afford to relax or develop a weakness or they're gone. It takes a certain kind of person to survive under such conditions.

Namely, anal-retentive paranoid cold-hearted ruthless bastards.

They ARE trying to save the world. They just understand (correctly) that sometimes the only way to do that is to destroy a large portion of it. To those who happen to live on that large portion, they look pretty evil. Even those they are trying to save might see them as horrible instruments of destruction.

Power is ugly and the truths of how it must be wielded are not easily stomached. How much more true that is in a world where one person can become a god and be completely disengaged from the society that gave birth to them. I think there's a certain heroism in being willing to be "evil", to do the things that have to be done, to bear the weight of those ugly choices that have to be made and to wear the scars of what those choices will do to your own soul, so that others don't have to even think about it. Nobody will call you a hero. They will fear you and hate you, just as we fear and hate the powerful among us.

Blah blah blah. My, aren't I portentuous and self-important? Well, yes.