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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5654391" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>No. Essentials only returns the martial classes to the basic attack ghetto. It doesn't put anyone else there. Even the Bladesinger, which does use basic attacks, also has some real powers.</p><p></p><p>Then you haven't gotten to the Mage, yet. Same AEDU as 4e, and then some, with a bonus at-will, spellbook for encounters as well as dailies, /and/ better powers. </p><p></p><p>Yeah. Well, some folks aparently have been pining for those good ol' days.</p><p></p><p>Meh. I run demo games at conventions, and when there's someone curious about the game, I'm the sort that steps up and runs it to give them a feel for it. I'm just saying, I've seen more than a few genuinely new players who have never tried a TT RPG in their lives. They have no problem learning 4e - especially the kids. They just soak it in like a sponge. </p><p></p><p>It's returning players who balk at 4e. The gamed a lot back in the day, but not for a while. They remember highlights, they remember specifics, they have stories about how great their old characters were - they tell you how experienced they are, putting some of their ego on the line. Then they go "but I'll start easy - with a Fighter." Then they see that the Fighter has powers - and their brains explode. </p><p></p><p>(have you ever tried to get exploded brain off of a battlemat? Me neither, I'm speaking figuratively.)</p><p></p><p>Seriously, though, that seems to be a major stumbling block for the old-schoolers. They 'know' that the figher is supposed to be simple (but it hasn't been since 3.0 hit the shelves), they 'know' that fighters just hit stuff and maybe move to get 'high ground' or finagle some other even-older-school wargaming bonus (but, now they have spell).</p><p></p><p>It'd just be 'learning curve,' you have to un-learn a little of the primitive game you last played 10 or 20 years ago in order to learn the shiny new one. But, like I said, above, ego has become involved. No, they're not having trouble, 4e is 'stupid,' because 'fighters are casting spells,' and you lose another one. </p><p></p><p>Essentials really handles that problem (and, honestly, no other). Every lapsed AD&Der I've demo'd essentials for has grocked it immediately - because he started with a 'simple fighter,' and his expectations of simplistic boredom while he got to know the rules were met.</p><p></p><p>Yay.</p><p></p><p>It is a big fat geek club, yeah. (uh, a big fat club, not a club for... oh, nevermind)</p><p></p><p>Yes, some games have steep learning curves. Champions! for instance, was my favorite game for a lotta years, but it took a full year of playing and building dozens of characters to master, so it was always a little harder to find someone to play it compared to D&D (or, later, Storyteller). D&D was never the hardest game to figure out how to play, in a basic sense, with a little help - it was complex, filled with synergies and 'traps,' and hard to 'master,' though. 4e was loads easier to learn than earlier eds. There was a lot less cross-pollenating 3.5-style 'system mastery' required to build a decent character, and all the classes used similar enough mechanics that playing one class gave you some grounding to play another. 'Power Cards' - to someone who doesn't expect to have to piece together his options and modifiers from several different parts of his sheet - are very intuitive. Roles gave you a clue how to put together a party, and how to play yours in a contributing way. </p><p>You could almost call pre-E 4e 'slick.'</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5654391, member: 996"] No. Essentials only returns the martial classes to the basic attack ghetto. It doesn't put anyone else there. Even the Bladesinger, which does use basic attacks, also has some real powers. Then you haven't gotten to the Mage, yet. Same AEDU as 4e, and then some, with a bonus at-will, spellbook for encounters as well as dailies, /and/ better powers. Yeah. Well, some folks aparently have been pining for those good ol' days. Meh. I run demo games at conventions, and when there's someone curious about the game, I'm the sort that steps up and runs it to give them a feel for it. I'm just saying, I've seen more than a few genuinely new players who have never tried a TT RPG in their lives. They have no problem learning 4e - especially the kids. They just soak it in like a sponge. It's returning players who balk at 4e. The gamed a lot back in the day, but not for a while. They remember highlights, they remember specifics, they have stories about how great their old characters were - they tell you how experienced they are, putting some of their ego on the line. Then they go "but I'll start easy - with a Fighter." Then they see that the Fighter has powers - and their brains explode. (have you ever tried to get exploded brain off of a battlemat? Me neither, I'm speaking figuratively.) Seriously, though, that seems to be a major stumbling block for the old-schoolers. They 'know' that the figher is supposed to be simple (but it hasn't been since 3.0 hit the shelves), they 'know' that fighters just hit stuff and maybe move to get 'high ground' or finagle some other even-older-school wargaming bonus (but, now they have spell). It'd just be 'learning curve,' you have to un-learn a little of the primitive game you last played 10 or 20 years ago in order to learn the shiny new one. But, like I said, above, ego has become involved. No, they're not having trouble, 4e is 'stupid,' because 'fighters are casting spells,' and you lose another one. Essentials really handles that problem (and, honestly, no other). Every lapsed AD&Der I've demo'd essentials for has grocked it immediately - because he started with a 'simple fighter,' and his expectations of simplistic boredom while he got to know the rules were met. Yay. It is a big fat geek club, yeah. (uh, a big fat club, not a club for... oh, nevermind) Yes, some games have steep learning curves. Champions! for instance, was my favorite game for a lotta years, but it took a full year of playing and building dozens of characters to master, so it was always a little harder to find someone to play it compared to D&D (or, later, Storyteller). D&D was never the hardest game to figure out how to play, in a basic sense, with a little help - it was complex, filled with synergies and 'traps,' and hard to 'master,' though. 4e was loads easier to learn than earlier eds. There was a lot less cross-pollenating 3.5-style 'system mastery' required to build a decent character, and all the classes used similar enough mechanics that playing one class gave you some grounding to play another. 'Power Cards' - to someone who doesn't expect to have to piece together his options and modifiers from several different parts of his sheet - are very intuitive. Roles gave you a clue how to put together a party, and how to play yours in a contributing way. You could almost call pre-E 4e 'slick.' [/QUOTE]
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