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Is expertise badly designed?
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<blockquote data-quote="Beleriphon" data-source="post: 7894532" data-attributes="member: 27847"><p>A dexterity check still applies without or without Stealth proficiency, its about avoiding notice of your target and slipping through a crowd. You can still stand behind things, walk non-chalantly and avoid bumping into people. You'd be surprised what you can get away with in a crowd as far as slightly odd behavior goes.</p><p></p><p>I think you're still missing my point though. If Stealth works in a warehouse for a rogue, stealth works in a forest for a rogue. The same process applies. Replace barrels with bushes and columns with trees. Shadows still need to be used, line of sight still needs to be blocked.</p><p></p><p>That isn't an issue with the way Expertise interacts, its a problem with the perception that a rogue should be somehow be less able hide in the wilderness because some variety of ranger happens to be good a being sneaky in the wilderness. The rogue regardless of origin can still be stealthy using the same skill set in a forest or a mountain as in the slums and urban jungle.</p><p></p><p>[USER=7017930]@Anoth[/USER] All of this is still related to expertise stealth because stealth is badly overly inclusive & as a result expertise stealth invalidates all other approaches.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>It generally doesn't though. I'd still use the Dexterity (Stealth) for a crowd because moving unseen in a crowd is still something that requires dexterity. Now its about slipping your way past the crowd and keeping yourself behind other people while still able to see who you actually want to be hidden from. Stealth happens to be a relevant proficiency, but I could see somebody suggesting Deception or Perception depending on the situation.</p><p></p><p>As for expertise, yes I would assume the player would want to use that as much as possible, given that they clearly want to have a stealth character? Would I be a problem if a fighter had GWM and wanted to use his greatsword to fight all of the time? What about a wizard wanting to cast a <em>fly </em>spell rather than jumping over a pit? These are resources the player has invested and wants to use to play the game. I fail to see how being marginally better at Stealth than another character is a problem, especially with the way the hiding rules actually work.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Beleriphon, post: 7894532, member: 27847"] A dexterity check still applies without or without Stealth proficiency, its about avoiding notice of your target and slipping through a crowd. You can still stand behind things, walk non-chalantly and avoid bumping into people. You'd be surprised what you can get away with in a crowd as far as slightly odd behavior goes. I think you're still missing my point though. If Stealth works in a warehouse for a rogue, stealth works in a forest for a rogue. The same process applies. Replace barrels with bushes and columns with trees. Shadows still need to be used, line of sight still needs to be blocked. That isn't an issue with the way Expertise interacts, its a problem with the perception that a rogue should be somehow be less able hide in the wilderness because some variety of ranger happens to be good a being sneaky in the wilderness. The rogue regardless of origin can still be stealthy using the same skill set in a forest or a mountain as in the slums and urban jungle. [USER=7017930]@Anoth[/USER] All of this is still related to expertise stealth because stealth is badly overly inclusive & as a result expertise stealth invalidates all other approaches.[/QUOTE] It generally doesn't though. I'd still use the Dexterity (Stealth) for a crowd because moving unseen in a crowd is still something that requires dexterity. Now its about slipping your way past the crowd and keeping yourself behind other people while still able to see who you actually want to be hidden from. Stealth happens to be a relevant proficiency, but I could see somebody suggesting Deception or Perception depending on the situation. As for expertise, yes I would assume the player would want to use that as much as possible, given that they clearly want to have a stealth character? Would I be a problem if a fighter had GWM and wanted to use his greatsword to fight all of the time? What about a wizard wanting to cast a [I]fly [/I]spell rather than jumping over a pit? These are resources the player has invested and wants to use to play the game. I fail to see how being marginally better at Stealth than another character is a problem, especially with the way the hiding rules actually work. [/QUOTE]
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