Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is Expertise too good?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7372160" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>Great, we have a hypothesis, let's test it.</p><p></p><p>Okay, so we're starting with a mundane character that is specifically putting part of their features into being educated and skills at arcane or survival. From an in-game narrative, let's call them the savant and the scout.</p><p></p><p>At 1st level, a wizard probably has a +3 Int and a +2 Proficiency, while the savant has +4 from proficiency. They aren't better unless they also have a 4+ INT modifier, which is possible but means that they are really focusing on being good at the skill, investing heavily in INT as well as a class feature to be good at Arcana.</p><p></p><p>At 5th proficiency goes up, but the wizard now has a +4 INT mod so the they both have gone up by +2 and it's the same status quo.</p><p></p><p>At 9th is the same deal - proficiency goes up but an ASI has already happened. Just to review, wizard is a +5 INT +4 proficiency = +9, while the savant is +8 expertise plus INT. So it really depends on how much the savant is investing in intelligence if it's lagging or not.</p><p></p><p>Mind you, the wizard has invested no class features into improving Arcana, so there is less opportunity cost for the wizard here already. They are improving their primary ability score which they would be doing anyway for spell attack and DC. The savant has invested a class feature, and needs to invest in a ability score that otherwise has no class synergies if they want to pull even, or invest heavily to pull ahead.</p><p></p><p>This holds true up through 12th. So, the character who has invested heavily can keep up with the generic wizard, in the +/-1 range for levels 1-12, which is where we see most actual play.</p><p></p><p>At 12th we have another ASI. If there was a feat this would be a chance for the wizard to invest, just like the savant has. Unfortunately the game is short on feats to improve Arcana, about the only one being Prodigy from XGtE, but that's racially limited. Too bad, we can't really evaluate wizard vs. savant with both of them investing in being good at arcana. Just see that the uninvested wizard and rogue who has spent to be good at it are in the same neighborhood</p><p></p><p>Now, only you can say if that is problematic at your table, I hope looking at it closer that they perceive window of superiority is less than expected at levels of actual play, and does come with a cost.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 7372160, member: 20564"] Great, we have a hypothesis, let's test it. Okay, so we're starting with a mundane character that is specifically putting part of their features into being educated and skills at arcane or survival. From an in-game narrative, let's call them the savant and the scout. At 1st level, a wizard probably has a +3 Int and a +2 Proficiency, while the savant has +4 from proficiency. They aren't better unless they also have a 4+ INT modifier, which is possible but means that they are really focusing on being good at the skill, investing heavily in INT as well as a class feature to be good at Arcana. At 5th proficiency goes up, but the wizard now has a +4 INT mod so the they both have gone up by +2 and it's the same status quo. At 9th is the same deal - proficiency goes up but an ASI has already happened. Just to review, wizard is a +5 INT +4 proficiency = +9, while the savant is +8 expertise plus INT. So it really depends on how much the savant is investing in intelligence if it's lagging or not. Mind you, the wizard has invested no class features into improving Arcana, so there is less opportunity cost for the wizard here already. They are improving their primary ability score which they would be doing anyway for spell attack and DC. The savant has invested a class feature, and needs to invest in a ability score that otherwise has no class synergies if they want to pull even, or invest heavily to pull ahead. This holds true up through 12th. So, the character who has invested heavily can keep up with the generic wizard, in the +/-1 range for levels 1-12, which is where we see most actual play. At 12th we have another ASI. If there was a feat this would be a chance for the wizard to invest, just like the savant has. Unfortunately the game is short on feats to improve Arcana, about the only one being Prodigy from XGtE, but that's racially limited. Too bad, we can't really evaluate wizard vs. savant with both of them investing in being good at arcana. Just see that the uninvested wizard and rogue who has spent to be good at it are in the same neighborhood Now, only you can say if that is problematic at your table, I hope looking at it closer that they perceive window of superiority is less than expected at levels of actual play, and does come with a cost. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is Expertise too good?
Top