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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 680027" data-attributes="member: 6239">Too much timeOk, since I have too much time on my hands, I read through the SRD.&nbsp; Here is a synopses of the monsters I found, A-D, not including dragons:[CODE][COLOR=red]Total&nbsp; &nbsp; With Improved Grab&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; With Constrict86&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6[/COLOR][/CODE] Ok, so improved grab isn't a huge portion of the monsters, but we knew that already.&nbsp; Constrict, the abilty that Icebear mentioned as the worse, comprise an even smaller group.Here are some specifics:[CODE][COLOR=red]Criter&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Grapple Bonus&nbsp; &nbsp; Int&nbsp; &nbsp; Constrict&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; CR---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Animated Object&nbsp; &nbsp; varies&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; VariesAnkheg&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3Assassine Vine&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3Behir&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8Choker&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2Chuul&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; squeeze&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7Cloaker&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; engulf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5Couatl&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10Darkmantle&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1Belilith&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9Hezrou&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14Glabrezu&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15Marilith&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; yes&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 17Hellcat&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7Hamatula&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8Pit Fiend&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16Tyrannosaurus&nbsp; &nbsp; 28&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8Dire Lion&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5Dire Bear&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7Dire Tiger&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8Dire Shark&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9[/COLOR][/CODE] Only the large creatures really have unbeatable grapple checks.&nbsp; But some of those are really harsh.&nbsp; How is an 8th level anything supposed to beat a 28 grapple check?&nbsp; A 9th level beat a 26?&nbsp; Fighters have a problem with that, arcane casters are just dead.Your point about inteligence is well taken though, Icebear.&nbsp; The larger and more obscene the grapple check, the dumber the monster.&nbsp; That gives smart adventurers a fighting chance.&nbsp; Conclusion: I think several of these monsters should have their CRs modified and/or their grapple checks reduced.&nbsp; Perhaps the bonus for size could go down to 2.&nbsp; At that point, the outsized hero with amazing strength can still throw a monster if he gets lucky.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 680027, member: 6239"] [b]Too much time[/b] Ok, since I have too much time on my hands, I read through the SRD. Here is a synopses of the monsters I found, A-D, not including dragons: [CODE][COLOR=red] Total With Improved Grab With Constrict 86 17 6 [/COLOR][/CODE] Ok, so improved grab isn't a huge portion of the monsters, but we knew that already. Constrict, the abilty that Icebear mentioned as the worse, comprise an even smaller group. Here are some specifics:[CODE][COLOR=red] Criter Grapple Bonus Int Constrict CR --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Animated Object varies - yes Varies Ankheg 10 1 no 3 Assassine Vine 11 - yes 3 Behir 23 7 no 8 Choker 2 4 yes 2 Chuul 16 10 squeeze 7 Cloaker 12 14 engulf 5 Couatl 16 17 yes 10 Darkmantle 1 2 yes 1 Belilith 27 11 no 9 Hezrou 17 14 no 14 Glabrezu 23 16 no 15 Marilith 17 18 yes 17 Hellcat 16 10 no 7 Hamatula 12 12 no 8 Pit Fiend 18 20 no 16 Tyrannosaurus 28 2 no 8 Dire Lion 16 2 no 5 Dire Bear 22 2 no 7 Dire Tiger 26 2 no 8 Dire Shark 25 2 no 9 [/COLOR][/CODE] Only the large creatures really have unbeatable grapple checks. But some of those are really harsh. How is an 8th level anything supposed to beat a 28 grapple check? A 9th level beat a 26? Fighters have a problem with that, arcane casters are just dead. Your point about inteligence is well taken though, Icebear. The larger and more obscene the grapple check, the dumber the monster. That gives smart adventurers a fighting chance. Conclusion: I think several of these monsters should have their CRs modified and/or their grapple checks reduced. Perhaps the bonus for size could go down to 2. At that point, the outsized hero with amazing strength can still throw a monster if he gets lucky. [/QUOTE]

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