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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 681172" data-attributes="member: 6239">An 8th level fighter, lots of strength.&nbsp; He should be able to hold his own against a CR 8.&nbsp; After all, the party should be able to defeat it with the loss of 20% of their resources, right?Ok, so 8th level fighter.&nbsp; Base 18 str, up to 20 from levels, +4 from an item.&nbsp; So grapple check of 15.&nbsp; Not too shaby.&nbsp; Now he faces a Tyrannosaurus, grapple check of 28.&nbsp; This means that the fighter has a 13 over the monster to win.&nbsp; What are the odds on that?&nbsp; If the first round doesn't get him, the second round will.Ok, the T-rex will swallow him and he will cut his way out.&nbsp; Fine, same PC vs a Dire Tiger has it sit on him most of the time, a difference of 11.&nbsp; Then the character gets shaken by his neck untill he is dead.&nbsp; Get out a weapon?&nbsp; I don't think you can get an item out while grappled, so you need to attack with it in the first place.Add a level to the PC, up to a grapple check 16, and now you are facing a Belbilith.&nbsp; You had better roll 11 over him every time or kiss your armor goodbye.&nbsp; All he has to do is hit you with one of his TWO claw attaks.&nbsp; Why do you want to play any character who gets anywhere near this?&nbsp; Treasure?&nbsp; Nope, not from the T-rex or Dire Tiger or even from the Belbilith.&nbsp; I think I have a good case get at least these three monster's CRs re-evaluated.Note:&nbsp; All monsters listed above come from the letter D in the MM.&nbsp; My players now fear that letter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 681172, member: 6239"] An 8th level fighter, lots of strength. He should be able to hold his own against a CR 8. After all, the party should be able to defeat it with the loss of 20% of their resources, right? Ok, so 8th level fighter. Base 18 str, up to 20 from levels, +4 from an item. So grapple check of 15. Not too shaby. Now he faces a Tyrannosaurus, grapple check of 28. This means that the fighter has a 13 over the monster to win. What are the odds on that? If the first round doesn't get him, the second round will. Ok, the T-rex will swallow him and he will cut his way out. Fine, same PC vs a Dire Tiger has it sit on him most of the time, a difference of 11. Then the character gets shaken by his neck untill he is dead. Get out a weapon? I don't think you can get an item out while grappled, so you need to attack with it in the first place. Add a level to the PC, up to a grapple check 16, and now you are facing a Belbilith. You had better roll 11 over him every time or kiss your armor goodbye. All he has to do is hit you with one of his TWO claw attaks. Why do you want to play any character who gets anywhere near this? Treasure? Nope, not from the T-rex or Dire Tiger or even from the Belbilith. I think I have a good case get at least these three monster's CRs re-evaluated. Note: All monsters listed above come from the letter D in the MM. My players now fear that letter. [/QUOTE]

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