NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6909615" data-attributes="member: 6778044">And you also missed my point. It's not a question of what they can be, or what they were, or what they are, it's not the exceptions, it's the expectations.The expectation, as presented in the game, is that goblins and orcs are evil and you are free to kill them. It doesn't say "Alignment: Most are raised in horrible conditions and become chaotic evil." It says Alignment: Chaotic Evil""Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers...Such was the role of the orcs, he (Gruumsh) proclaimed, to take and destroy all that the other races would deny them. To this day, the orcs wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk.""Orcs...exert their dominance and satisfy their bloodlust by plundering villages...slaying any humanoids that stand against them.""Their lust for slaughter demands that orcs dwell always within striking distance of new targets."Or from 2nd edition:"Orcs employ sniping and ambush tactics in the wild. They do not obey the “rules of war” unless such is in their best interests; for example, they will shoot at those who attempt to parlay with them under a white flag unless the orc leader feels it is advantageous to hear what the enemy has to say. They abuse human rules of engagement and chivalry to their best advantage. They have a historic enmity against elves and dwarves; many tribes will kill these demihumans on sight."The expectation for most people sitting down at a game of D&D is that they can happily go about killing goblins, orcs, demons and such, and never even consider whether it's good or evil.They are not described as "learning to be evil" they are described as evil. They are vilified. There is never any question that a paladin was going to lose their abilities by killing as many orcs as they could.The longest running introductory adventure, Keep on the Borderlands, says this:"The Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted.  Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders,  seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures. If it were not for a stout few, many in the Realm would indeed fall prey to the evil which surrounds them. Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies - dwarves, elves, and halflings - who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would otherwise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. "The adventure is to the Caves of Chaos, which are inhabited by kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, ogres, and others. The current introductory adventure also starts with a goblin ambush, and then clearing out the goblin lair. While there is a sidebar on what the goblins know if you capture or charm one, but there is no consideration whatsoever for negotiating a truce or peace with the goblins, or what to do if the PCs want to try that tact.That's not to say that you can't run a campaign that digs deeper into the morality behind that construct. And many (including me) do, because it's a lot of fun, and very interesting too. I find presenting moral or ethical challenges to the players make for very interesting games.</blockquote>

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