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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6916807" data-attributes="member: 6778044">Actually, from my perspective, the fact that the bouncer pulled a sword is OK, as discussed earlier, in a frontier/wild-west concept. An example given by somebody else is the barkeep firing a shotgun into the ceiling.I see it as sort of an, &quot;Enough. I'm stepping in, and I'm allowed to do what is necessary to end this and protect the property of the owner.&quot; As depicted in movies and such, that moment (like the shotgun) typically ends the fight. If somebody persists, then a shot (or dagger) over their head, or into the post next to their head does the trick.One of the inherent problems I often find from players is the automatic assumption that any fight is &quot;winnable&quot; by the party, and therefore they never back down. For example, in the same scene, with the bouncer drawing the sword, I might have to have a dozen or more watch patrol enter with crossbows at the ready to get the point across that the fight is over.In terms of your edit, I think the difference is really more along the lines of &quot;what if it was a bow or crossbow?&quot; because any melee weapon can be nonlethal in 5e (if you reduce the creature to 0 hit points you can choose to knock them out instead). Of course, since that decision is made at the point you drop them to 0 hit points by this rule, lethal and nonlethal damage doesn't look all that different.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 6916807, member: 6778044"] Actually, from my perspective, the fact that the bouncer pulled a sword is OK, as discussed earlier, in a frontier/wild-west concept. An example given by somebody else is the barkeep firing a shotgun into the ceiling. I see it as sort of an, "Enough. I'm stepping in, and [I]I'm[/I] allowed to do what is necessary to end this and protect the property of the owner." As depicted in movies and such, that moment (like the shotgun) typically ends the fight. If somebody persists, then a shot (or dagger) over their head, or into the post next to their head does the trick. One of the inherent problems I often find from players is the automatic assumption that any fight is "winnable" by the party, and therefore they never back down. For example, in the same scene, with the bouncer drawing the sword, I might have to have a dozen or more watch patrol enter with crossbows at the ready to get the point across that the fight is over. In terms of your edit, I think the difference is really more along the lines of "what if it was a bow or crossbow?" because any melee weapon can be nonlethal in 5e (if you reduce the creature to 0 hit points you can choose to knock them out instead). Of course, since that decision is made at the point you drop them to 0 hit points by this rule, lethal and nonlethal damage doesn't look all that different. [/QUOTE]

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