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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4694760" data-attributes="member: 7635">Ah, save disparity. What separated the men from the boys at high level. I was a player in a level 20 game with the following PCs: Wiz15/Acm5, Wiz10/lore10, Ftr3/Wiz5/EK10/Acm2, Clr20, Rgr20, Rog15/Thf-Acro5 (me!).Not a heavy PrC/Multi-classing group. So routinely, combats against spellcasting foes (and at 20th level, very few worthy foes DON'T have spells or SLAs) typically almost ALWAYS began with a Fort save (Wail of the Banshee was popular) or a Will Save (Mordie's Disjunction or Mass Hold Monster). The Two Wizards rarely failed the will saves, but we ressed them a few times from SoDs.The Rogue (me!) was routinely hosed. The Ranger spent a lot of time charmed, held, or holding brand-new masterwork gearThe Cleric and the Eldrich Knight were fine, both had high saves for Fort/Will enough to withstand these attacks.Reflex saves were mostly ignored, the rogue & ranger had evasion and everyone else had enough hp to soak it. Ranged touch atks were much more effective, as was meta-magiced Magic Missile. The last battle of the game was against a CR stupidly-high lich. Even going in prepped (all buff magics, etc) we found ourselves Disjunctioned, the ranger held for the entire fight, the wizard/Acm Finger of Deathed, the Eldrich Knight killed by hp attrition, the Cleric disintegrated, and the rogue running for 15+ rounds panicked in the lich's deathtrap dungeon.Thank God for the lich rolling a one on polar ray, or it'd be TPK-ville. The whole fight took 6+ hours to play out as many rounds. The ranger and I spent the vast majority of it out of the fight (due to lack of magic items AND failed saves).My point was 3e saves WERE the bad kind of random; characters like those mentioned above were targeted by their weakest save and true to form FAILED them because of DC:Save ratios. By 20th level, the disparity was so bad the above scenarios were predictable and decisively unfun. Give me some randomness, but don't give me that!</blockquote>

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