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<blockquote data-quote="WalkerWhite" data-source="post: 4302621" data-attributes="member: 7804">I am not writing this to start a edition war.&nbsp; It is just that I like to play a particular type of game, and I am having a very hard time to figure out how to do this in 4E.&nbsp; So, to be constructive, I am trying to elicit suggestions on what can be done to make this work.Since first edition, my gaming group has always like to play infiltration games.&nbsp; Think of the video game &quot;Thief&quot;.&nbsp; The object is to sneak in and out to achieve your objective with minimal combat.&nbsp; In fact, at the highest levels, if you pull an alert this typically results in a party wipe.&nbsp; In 3.x terms, you are commonly playing in areas that, if they resulted in straight up combat, would be 5 to 6 encounter levels above the party.I understood how to design such a scenario in the first three editions.&nbsp; They were not perfect and each edition had problems, but I understood them.&nbsp; I do not understand how to do this in 4.0.The first issue is gathering intel.&nbsp; There is no out-of-combat invisibility in this game.&nbsp; If you open a door -- even unseen -- then you break sustainability and lose your invisibility power for the day.&nbsp; Neither can you rely on scrying, as the rituals are capped at 5 rounds.&nbsp; Therefore, if you want intel on guard patterns or shift changes, scrying and invisibility are all out.&nbsp; As far as I can tell, your only option is to send a ranger or&nbsp; rogue -- they are only the characters that class stealth. That by itself is not horrible.&nbsp; I can at least write adventures around this.&nbsp; The alert systems will not be as complicated or intricate as they could be in earlier editions, but I can do something.&nbsp; The problem is what to do when the party breaks into the area.&nbsp; My options seem much more limited. For example, this is where an illusionist really shines.&nbsp; Illusionary wall to patch up that hole the druid punched with stone shape.&nbsp; Illusion of a guard on rotation after you take him out. Invisibility (or disguise) spells for the party.&nbsp; The first two are now rituals; no longer possible in real time crunch situations (you also cannot &quot;puppet&quot; the illusions under concentration, but that is an issue for another post).&nbsp; For the latter, it appears the best option is disguise self, which is daily cast on one target only.&nbsp; Indeed, the whole misdirection part of the game appears to be largely eliminated.&nbsp; There are no auras to detect, much less to redirect or double-redirect.&nbsp; I cannot project and puppet images of my character in other locations. No charm or control spells to inject faulty intel into the enemy ranks.So what's the deal?&nbsp; Does this just mean that 4.0 is not for me?&nbsp; Or is there something that can be done to satisfy me and my gaming group?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WalkerWhite, post: 4302621, member: 7804"] I am not writing this to start a edition war. It is just that I like to play a particular type of game, and I am having a very hard time to figure out how to do this in 4E. So, to be constructive, I am trying to elicit suggestions on what can be done to make this work. Since first edition, my gaming group has always like to play infiltration games. Think of the video game "Thief". The object is to sneak in and out to achieve your objective with minimal combat. In fact, at the highest levels, if you pull an alert this typically results in a party wipe. In 3.x terms, you are commonly playing in areas that, if they resulted in straight up combat, would be 5 to 6 encounter levels above the party. I understood how to design such a scenario in the first three editions. They were not perfect and each edition had problems, but I understood them. I do not understand how to do this in 4.0. The first issue is gathering intel. There is no out-of-combat invisibility in this game. If you open a door -- even unseen -- then you break sustainability and lose your invisibility power for the day. Neither can you rely on scrying, as the rituals are capped at 5 rounds. Therefore, if you want intel on guard patterns or shift changes, scrying and invisibility are all out. As far as I can tell, your only option is to send a ranger or rogue -- they are only the characters that class stealth. That by itself is not horrible. I can at least write adventures around this. The alert systems will not be as complicated or intricate as they could be in earlier editions, but I can do something. The problem is what to do when the party breaks into the area. My options seem much more limited. For example, this is where an illusionist really shines. Illusionary wall to patch up that hole the druid punched with stone shape. Illusion of a guard on rotation after you take him out. Invisibility (or disguise) spells for the party. The first two are now rituals; no longer possible in real time crunch situations (you also cannot "puppet" the illusions under concentration, but that is an issue for another post). For the latter, it appears the best option is disguise self, which is daily cast on one target only. Indeed, the whole misdirection part of the game appears to be largely eliminated. There are no auras to detect, much less to redirect or double-redirect. I cannot project and puppet images of my character in other locations. No charm or control spells to inject faulty intel into the enemy ranks. So what's the deal? Does this just mean that 4.0 is not for me? Or is there something that can be done to satisfy me and my gaming group? [/QUOTE]

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