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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8063270" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Wouldn't that be represented by failing the Persuasion check?Right... the guy powerful enough to get the Dracoliches real phylactery (because the Dracolich better be able to recognize his own soul without a check) may not have the guts or skill to destroy it before the Dracolich can get it away. Considering the Dracolich could literally out live the guy's entire lineage if the phylactery is kept intact.... that seems like a very dumb line of thought. What sort of evil mastermind thinks that the good guys won't have the stones to kill them. Especially in a DnD world.... Well. you are right. That is incredibly stupid. Guess that is why all those commoners come out to stab the orcish invaders and fight alongside the PCs at level 5, because they totally think they can take a man in full armor with a magic sword, who has killed literally hundreds of monsters. Right, this is what I call Stupid Evil. If you have an organization and you want to terrify the populace into working, then you are going to have to have public executions. Because someone is going to stand up and protest. Now you are killing your own workforce. And sure, they listen, and they fear you... which means the moment they think they have a real shot at it, they will betray you. Because they want you gone, so when the seedy man starts spreading rumors that he can kill you, all he needs is access to the kitchen... well, that isn't going to be nearly as hard for him as it could have been. Yes, I know that historically tyranical individuals have held power for long stretches of time, but that is always an unstable base. And there is no need for it. Literally. You are choosing to do this for no other reason than to flex a skill proficiency.Military discipline is an entirely different thing. That generally comes from both a competive spirit (not being left behind the group) and the fact that you are serving your nation. You are much more dealing with a factory floor boss, and I wouldn't say that the boss calling you in and laying out all the things you might have done wrong is really an intimidation, unless there is an underlying threat involved in it. Like them losing their job.Maybe it is, but it could also be persuasion. And since persuasion is more useful overall, I'd want to argue it is part of the larger skill, not the smaller one.Right, but here is the problem, the more leverage you have, the less likely it is you need to roll.For the Lich example to work, you need 1) to have found the phylactery location (and not used that information yourself), 2) Given that information to another NPC 3) That NPC needs to have a desire to see your goals and not just the Lich's death (ie they aren't going to betray you) 4) they need to be able to find the Death Knight 5) There needs to be a Death Knight who wants to kill the Lich and can access the Lich's Phylactery and 6) That Death Knight needs to not kill your NPC informant on sight.You have set up a multi-stage, elaborate triple blind information drop, to get the chance to use a single skill. And, you are in complete control if you actually know the Lich's real phylactery location. And this gets deeper, what if you are lying about your leverage? Do I have to succeed on a deception then an intimidation? To know the right things to to say is it Insight, Deception, Intimidation. Why am I three rolls deep before I get to use this? And in the potion seller example... what if they aren't a cheater? What if your leverage is threatening his shop, or his family. Now again, you are teetering into Evil territory. Is your Barbarian really going to threaten to kill the man's wife and child just to get a discount?So if you fail the roll, your dracolich servant is just more disobedient? I mean, I wasn't expecting him to be a whipped dog no matter how high I rolled, so again, what is the point of the roll? I mean, why does getting an 18 on intimidation decide that I know it is too scared to disobey (and isn't just fooling me)? How does an 18 on intimidation compare to a 15, does that mean he'll disobey more than he already was for being an ancient and arrogant being whom I'm trying to threaten into serving me? Where is the line were it doesn't try to kill me anymore, using it's magic to casting sending to assassins to come after me?Really, it sounds like the skill in this scenario is just being used for a barometer of how much trouble you get in the future, but you already succeeded. And failing this check now... doesn't mean you won't succeed in the future, so even a bad roll is nothing to really care about here.</blockquote>

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