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<blockquote data-quote="auburn2" data-source="post: 8063686" data-attributes="member: 6855259">I think the Vampire or the lich can be intimidated easier than he can be persuaded in most cases and it has nothing at all to do with being able to kill someone.&nbsp; This is my biggest problem with these arguements against it, it is narrowly focused on using violence or the threat of violence.&nbsp; Absolutely the DM can fiat and decide a skill won't work before you roll and walking up and trying to bribe the lich (persuasion), when he doesn't care about gold and could wipe out your party and just take it if he did care is likely going to be an automatic failure.&nbsp; It will likewise be an automatic failure if you just walk up and threaten to kill the lich too (unless for some reason you are obviously much more powerful than he is or he can't escape which admittedly was in the example I used).Not every NPC can be intimidated and it certainly does require the right conditions, to include setting those conditions if necessary, but the same is true for persuasion and it is even more so true for deception.&nbsp; In the games I DM and in the games I play intimidation is more likely to work than persuasion in general.&nbsp; To counter your claim - if both are an option either could be the better choice depending on the exact circumstances (and your skill bonus), but persuasion is less likely to be an option at all during important social interactions.I disagree completely with your ending, deception and persuasion are viable options but in general you have to spend equal time setting up persuasion and more time setting up deception of you want to be convincing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="auburn2, post: 8063686, member: 6855259"] I think the Vampire or the lich can be intimidated easier than he can be persuaded in most cases and it has nothing at all to do with being able to kill someone. This is my biggest problem with these arguements against it, it is narrowly focused on using violence or the threat of violence. Absolutely the DM can fiat and decide a skill won't work before you roll and walking up and trying to bribe the lich (persuasion), when he doesn't care about gold and could wipe out your party and just take it if he did care is likely going to be an automatic failure. It will likewise be an automatic failure if you just walk up and threaten to kill the lich too (unless for some reason you are obviously much more powerful than he is or he can't escape which admittedly was in the example I used). Not every NPC can be intimidated and it certainly does require the right conditions, to include setting those conditions if necessary, but the same is true for persuasion and it is even more so true for deception. In the games I DM and in the games I play intimidation is more likely to work than persuasion in general. To counter your claim - if both are an option either could be the better choice depending on the exact circumstances (and your skill bonus), but persuasion is less likely to be an option at all during important social interactions. I disagree completely with your ending, deception and persuasion are viable options but in general you have to spend equal time setting up persuasion and more time setting up deception of you want to be convincing. [/QUOTE]

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