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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8063838" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Sure, but I never said it was at 4th level. In fact, the only time "level" came into it was when someone wanted to prove that an 8th level fighter could intimidate a Lich if her threatened the phylacteries location to the lich's enemy via a third party contract. My original point was that you cannot threaten someone more powerful than you, but you do have the potential to persuade them.4th level might be to low but, the party might be able to try. Maybe they have some clever leverage or lie that can work. But threatening the lich... probably not so much. But by 9th level, the party is in a much better position to use persuasion... and still not so much on intimidation.Ok. So, Intimidation is worthless unless you have something to hold over the person.Of course not. Good lord, have I ever said I was trying to take someone's position with a single roll? How about this, can I persuade the Bandit King to give us right of passage in the mountains with a single roll? Maybe, can I persuade the bandits to take me to see the Bandit King with a single roll? Could I maybe persuade the Bandit King not to kill us, with a single roll? On the flip side, you already stated that without leverage, I cannot do any of that with intimidation.Why not? Seriously, what makes it impossible to change his mind? And, yeah, we have established intimidate isn't perfect for every situation. So far it only seems perfect for getting what you could already get.Sure, that is a valid solution to breaking up a fight, especially in the real world. DnD game. How many times have you cared enough to stop a bar fight? And the examples you guys have given for intimidate have included1) Scaring a drunk out of your path2) Scaring a bear to run away3) Enslaving a sentient being (undead and evil, but still sentient) by threatening their life4) Getting discounts on goods by threatening to reveal criminal activity5) Forcing people to work for you out of fear6) Bullying your way through a gate without paying the toll7) Threatening to kill the children of an old man (the emperor example)8) Threating to slaughter a village (the church example) Can you really read that list and not see where I might think the person who goes and does these things isn't an ass? At best? At worst he is a tyrant. Who wants to spend their liesure time pretending to be that guy? Not me. This is the first time anyone has said anything like trying to break up a bar fight (which is still threatening violence on those weaker than you) and that is the first non-evil use of the skill in nearly a dozen pages that I have seen.Okay man, I get it. I need to bring my idiot spray to your games because they will be crawling out of the woodwork to inconveniently stand in my way or try to stab me in the neck. And my only saving grace will be getting a +2 in intimidation.Yes, I'm being sarcastic here, this is seriously just getting old and I don't know why you seem to insist that this is so important.Feel free to declare a victory for idiots and bears.</blockquote>

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