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<blockquote data-quote="auburn2" data-source="post: 8064572" data-attributes="member: 6855259">Ok here is one I might very try well against a Lich very shortly in a game I am playing with a way overmatched 4th level party and a Lich&nbsp; .We plan to kill her, not intimidate her but if we fail to kill her our fallback is to intimidate her into letting us live.We currently have a Lich traveling with our 4th level party (4PCs, 3 NPCs and a shield guardian).&nbsp; We know the location of an artifact the Lich is desperate to find.&nbsp; It is very important to her that she finds said artifact and she has no other leads. For some reason she hasn't (can't?) used detect thoughts or something like that on us (I have no idea why).&nbsp; The party is going to ambush her shortly, we have come up with a plan that has a chance of working.&nbsp; It involves grappling by the shield guardian and silence and beating her to death with missile weapons spells and reach attacks, while she is immobilized inside the silence and can not cast her spells.&nbsp; I would give us a 50-50 chance of suceeding. If we fail though and she breaks out of the silence she could easily kill us.&nbsp; If she gets out of the silence, the minute she is free we know we can't win and have every intention of going from fighting to intimidating her at that point if it happens:&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;If you kill us you will never find the artifact!&quot;THAT IS INTIMIDATION. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does there was no set up necessary.&nbsp; Is it possible persuasion could work here too (plead for pour lives)?&nbsp; Sure but you talking about a very pissed off Lich at that point and I think it would be more difficult.&nbsp; It is also possible intimidation fails and she wipes us out.&nbsp; It is even possible the DM does not let us roll and she wipes us out.The same group of PCs were captured and taken prisoner by 2 Frost giants and a Winter Wolf at 1st level.&nbsp;&nbsp; Over the course of several days they used persuasion, deception and intimidation to escape from the Frost Giants, getting one of the Giants killed in the process.&nbsp; This at 1st level!&nbsp; That absolutely did require a lot of setup and required some luck as well,&nbsp; but the scenario we created was entirely plausible and believable and the giant we intimidated was far, far physically superior to us.If that kind of thing never happens in your games then the PCs and the DM are not making the most out of social opportunities.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="auburn2, post: 8064572, member: 6855259"] Ok here is one I might very try well against a Lich very shortly in a game I am playing with a way overmatched 4th level party and a Lich .We plan to kill her, not intimidate her but if we fail to kill her our fallback is to intimidate her into letting us live. We currently have a Lich traveling with our 4th level party (4PCs, 3 NPCs and a shield guardian). We know the location of an artifact the Lich is desperate to find. It is very important to her that she finds said artifact and she has no other leads. For some reason she hasn't (can't?) used detect thoughts or something like that on us (I have no idea why). The party is going to ambush her shortly, we have come up with a plan that has a chance of working. It involves grappling by the shield guardian and silence and beating her to death with missile weapons spells and reach attacks, while she is immobilized inside the silence and can not cast her spells. I would give us a 50-50 chance of suceeding. If we fail though and she breaks out of the silence she could easily kill us. If she gets out of the silence, the minute she is free we know we can't win and have every intention of going from fighting to intimidating her at that point if it happens: "If you kill us you will never find the artifact!" THAT IS INTIMIDATION. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does there was no set up necessary. Is it possible persuasion could work here too (plead for pour lives)? Sure but you talking about a very pissed off Lich at that point and I think it would be more difficult. It is also possible intimidation fails and she wipes us out. It is even possible the DM does not let us roll and she wipes us out. The same group of PCs were captured and taken prisoner by 2 Frost giants and a Winter Wolf at 1st level. Over the course of several days they used persuasion, deception and intimidation to escape from the Frost Giants, getting one of the Giants killed in the process. This at 1st level! That absolutely did require a lot of setup and required some luck as well, but the scenario we created was entirely plausible and believable and the giant we intimidated was far, far physically superior to us. If that kind of thing never happens in your games then the PCs and the DM are not making the most out of social opportunities. [/QUOTE]

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