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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Psion" data-source="post: 1864543" data-attributes="member: 172">Let's see. Since it came out, I have1) Been involved in 5 d20 groups in some form (not counting conventions, game days, visits home, things like that), and2) My "core" group has experienced a TOTAL player turnover (I live near a military base and many of my players get new orders)Take a look at the participation of the character optimization forum at the WotC boards and compare it to the rest of the boards. I think you'll find it gives your view the lie.Aha! There's your problem right there. I am not talking RPGA, which is largely notorious for having a more-competitive-than-the-norm style. Living campaigns are almost subcultures unto themselves, and a set of standards and assumptions apply to them beyond what exists in D&D. That you hang so much on the rules but hang nothing of conventions of the RPGA strikes as so contradictory as to be disingenuous.3e does has it's flaws. But as to the malignancy of munchkinism being a playstyle thing and not a rules thing: I'm sayin' it.</blockquote>