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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Akrasia" data-source="post: 1869783" data-attributes="member: 23012">There seem to be (at least) two distinct lines of discussion going on here.(1.)  Whether the rules for 3E give rise to a 'culture' of purchasing new 'crunchy bits' (splatbooks with new feats, prestige classes, etc.) that resembles the 'culture' of MtG -- with the consequence that most current/new D&D players focus on the 'crunchy bits' (and thus view their characters primarily in terms of stats and abilities), rather than 'plot/character elements'.(2.)  Whether the rules for d20 D&D could have been designed in a manner that made feats, skills, the tactical combat rules, and so forth, optional -- rather than required parts of the core system.  (The fact that d20 D&D is designed in this way might promote the "crunch culture" mentioned in (1.), but it is a separate matter.)As for (1.), I have tended to think that this was the case, but since I don't have to deal with most players (thankfully), I guess that even if my perception is correct, it is no big deal.  Any players I would want to associate with in this hobby would not be ones who focused on the 'crunchy bits' (no matter the system).  However, I do find that the mechanics of 3E tend to force one to be aware/conscious of all the 'crunchy bits' almost continually when playing the game (in contrast to, say, Unisystem, where the mechanics tend to 'fade into the background' while playing -- at leat IME).  But this is certainly something that can be worked around with a good group.As for (2.), the frustrating thing about 3E D&D is that there is no 'rules lite' alternative version of D&D available right now.  During most of the history of D&D, there was always an alternative, simpler set of rules that busy/lazy people could play: viz. the Basic/Expert, and eventually the Rules Cyclopedia, rules.  And even AD&D -- not a 'rules lite' system by any definition -- was designed (though probably not intentionally so) in such a way that players could ignore huge chunks of the rules (weapon speeds, weapon vs. armour modifiers, the 1E initiative system, the 1E unarmed combat system, etc.) without unbalancing/ruining the game.  In contrast, there is no 'rules lite' version of 3E, and attempts to ignore large parts of the 3E core system (feats, etc.) lead to huge problems.I know many 'old school' players (30+) who have tried 3E and have either quit altogether, or turned to some 'less crunchy' system (an earlier version of D&D, or another system altogether).  The reason: despite using the 'simple' d20 mechanic for most things, acquiring competency in the d20 rules takes a lot of time (especially if you want to DM).  While not rocket science, the rules are not easy for many busy 30+ players to master in their limited spare time.   Unlike the old days, there is not (yet) a rules lite version of the game for these busy professionals.</blockquote>

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