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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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<blockquote data-quote="Gadget" data-source="post: 7149280" data-attributes="member: 23716"><p>Given the great lengths that 5e has gone to to tone down the "Save or Suck/Die" spells in this edition (Concentration, save every round, etc) and the fact that the PCs are 19th level, I have little sympathy for the complaining player. Every table has their own play style and idiosyncrasies, here is what I can perceive as the "problems", if problems they could be called:</p><p></p><p>1) The party seems really magic light for a 19th level super deadly fight, having only one full spell caster (cleric). This caused them to have to use unusual tactics to counter-act this disadvantage, such as spreading out to mitigate AoE and employing anti-magic fields. This in turn, prevented or hindered the overlapping support and synergy that high level parties can usually employ to help one another (numerous ways to grant advantage on saves/attacks, auras, help action, etc.). That is the way the cookie crumbled I guess.</p><p></p><p>2) If there is a flaw in the System (some might see it otherwise), it is that Save or Suck spells really are not that effective when you first get them, the target will likely make the save either right away or very soon; however, when you have a higher proficiency bonus, it becomes very difficult to save against the same spell it it is not a strong save for the target. The corollary to this is that Saves don't really rise all that much unless you are proficient. The upshot being that Save or Suck effects are going to be a lot more of an issue for PCs at high level not only because they are more prevalent in the upper tier, but also because PCs are generally more vulnerable as well, as the discrepancy between the Difficulty of the Save and the PC's Save bonus grows. This can be mitigated by a lot of character abilities, feats, advantage granting, not using spell casting opponents or making them very rare, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gadget, post: 7149280, member: 23716"] Given the great lengths that 5e has gone to to tone down the "Save or Suck/Die" spells in this edition (Concentration, save every round, etc) and the fact that the PCs are 19th level, I have little sympathy for the complaining player. Every table has their own play style and idiosyncrasies, here is what I can perceive as the "problems", if problems they could be called: 1) The party seems really magic light for a 19th level super deadly fight, having only one full spell caster (cleric). This caused them to have to use unusual tactics to counter-act this disadvantage, such as spreading out to mitigate AoE and employing anti-magic fields. This in turn, prevented or hindered the overlapping support and synergy that high level parties can usually employ to help one another (numerous ways to grant advantage on saves/attacks, auras, help action, etc.). That is the way the cookie crumbled I guess. 2) If there is a flaw in the System (some might see it otherwise), it is that Save or Suck spells really are not that effective when you first get them, the target will likely make the save either right away or very soon; however, when you have a higher proficiency bonus, it becomes very difficult to save against the same spell it it is not a strong save for the target. The corollary to this is that Saves don't really rise all that much unless you are proficient. The upshot being that Save or Suck effects are going to be a lot more of an issue for PCs at high level not only because they are more prevalent in the upper tier, but also because PCs are generally more vulnerable as well, as the discrepancy between the Difficulty of the Save and the PC's Save bonus grows. This can be mitigated by a lot of character abilities, feats, advantage granting, not using spell casting opponents or making them very rare, etc. [/QUOTE]
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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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