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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sadras" data-source="post: 7150345" data-attributes="member: 6688277"><p>Okay we can disagree on that issue. If he runs games like that today then I would easily place him in the bad-DM camp.</p><p>But don't you think it would be disingenuous for me to say in a debate about 4e <em>hey GM 4e is crap based on young DM/bad DM example</em>?</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Here is the thing. Have you never been surprised by a DM?</p><p>I'm not saying this DM would have done it - but its not that far fetched for me to imagine a situation which initially appears impossible but the DM through narrating the story provides a surprising twist. As a basic example...TPK in combat only for party to be resurrected centuries later by a mysterious entity. Imprisoned, only for the magic spell to suddenly fail a few days later, as magic everywhere mysteriously waxes and wanes... </p><p>Remember my response was to your initial post - I had not know you had asked the DM whether your escape was possible.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, I'm not here to defend other posters. I have had the luxury of 2 bad DMs IMO (they were brothers), who happened to run 4e.</p><p>I believe the reason they were poor at DMing were because their experience was largely homogenous - they had no exposure to differing styles and roleplayers which did little to grow them as DMs. (Side Note - That is why places like Enworld are great for the community - I firmly believe it creates better DM's and players).</p><p>Now I don't have an issue with 4e based on those bad DM's. You entered the conversation and blamed save-vs-suck on this bad DM - and here is the key thing to remember, bleachers-loving guy @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=284" target="_blank">Caliban</a></u></strong></em> even admitted this might have been something he would do 15 years ago. That is the sole reason where we are disagreeing (besides the save vs suck thing).</p><p></p><p>If a guy is out for a fight because save-vs-suck its not the end of the world at our table, the guys have fun - jesting, giving advice, making coffee...etc and we would NEVER have a guy be out for an entire session at our table - that is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY since we don't play as often as when we were teenagers/20 years old, so RPG-time is precious. So on that we agree, just not on the example you used in the debate to argue vs save-vs-suck <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sadras, post: 7150345, member: 6688277"] Okay we can disagree on that issue. If he runs games like that today then I would easily place him in the bad-DM camp. But don't you think it would be disingenuous for me to say in a debate about 4e [I]hey GM 4e is crap based on young DM/bad DM example[/I]? Here is the thing. Have you never been surprised by a DM? I'm not saying this DM would have done it - but its not that far fetched for me to imagine a situation which initially appears impossible but the DM through narrating the story provides a surprising twist. As a basic example...TPK in combat only for party to be resurrected centuries later by a mysterious entity. Imprisoned, only for the magic spell to suddenly fail a few days later, as magic everywhere mysteriously waxes and wanes... Remember my response was to your initial post - I had not know you had asked the DM whether your escape was possible. Okay, I'm not here to defend other posters. I have had the luxury of 2 bad DMs IMO (they were brothers), who happened to run 4e. I believe the reason they were poor at DMing were because their experience was largely homogenous - they had no exposure to differing styles and roleplayers which did little to grow them as DMs. (Side Note - That is why places like Enworld are great for the community - I firmly believe it creates better DM's and players). Now I don't have an issue with 4e based on those bad DM's. You entered the conversation and blamed save-vs-suck on this bad DM - and here is the key thing to remember, bleachers-loving guy @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=284"]Caliban[/URL][/U][/B][/I] even admitted this might have been something he would do 15 years ago. That is the sole reason where we are disagreeing (besides the save vs suck thing). If a guy is out for a fight because save-vs-suck its not the end of the world at our table, the guys have fun - jesting, giving advice, making coffee...etc and we would NEVER have a guy be out for an entire session at our table - that is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY since we don't play as often as when we were teenagers/20 years old, so RPG-time is precious. So on that we agree, just not on the example you used in the debate to argue vs save-vs-suck ;) [/QUOTE]
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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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