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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sadras" data-source="post: 7151281" data-attributes="member: 6688277"><p>We will have to disagree on this point. I don't think 8 years cuts it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it isn't.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay what do we know from this:</p><p>1. He was imprisoned;</p><p>2. PCs had no way of getting him out;</p><p>3. His character was the only spellcaster;</p><p>4. He waited 15 minutes;</p><p>5. He was called a jerk for leaving the game early;</p><p>6. DM said his actions were rude.</p><p></p><p>Nowhere does he say he asked the DM if he could get out or if he would get out before the end of the session.</p><p>From 15 minutes of play as a player I have no idea what twist a DM might do in the story. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes he was right, and that DM roleplays the same even now according to GM.</p><p>However, how was I to know from that first post the DM didn't have a plan to release the character in a surprising twist but decided to ignore it since PG left the table.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Putting aside your personal issues with DMs, the bottomline Hussar is that this was an example of a poor DM (who acts the same way even now).</p><p></p><p>Yes, GM was right for leaving that table/group. I agree with both you and PG there.</p><p>BUT <strong>Personally, I would have waited till the end of the session because its courteous. And given the DM the benefit of the doubt. If he failed (like he did), I would then talk to him after the game and offer some constructive criticism. I would evaluate the feeback from that and then decide if I'd be sticking around. Again in all fairness to PG, he was in his teens and its easy for me to say that now.</strong></p><p></p><p>DMs go to a lot of trouble to create/host an enjoyable game, but they are only human, they sometimes make poor judgements for the group. Players are allowed to offer advice to encourage and improve the fun at the table. Sometimes its a case of differing playstyles, but other times its a case of inexperience.</p><p></p><p>Lastly, I don't believe its right to use a poor DM example to make one's case against save vs suck and refer to it the mechanic as 'failure design'. You do, again we will have to disagree.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes but I wasn't in that game <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Say the party was 4th level, and the character was sidelined due to a save vs suck spell for one combat (10 minutes) are you ok with that? </p><p></p><p>Say the party is 10th level, and the character was sidelined due to a save vs suck spell for (40 minutes) are you ok with that?</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I think most of us here on Enworld would be ok with above. It doesn't happen every combat and its part of the risk/reward.</p><p></p><p>Okay let us bring it back to the OP.</p><p>The party is high level so there would be many movings parts and the choices even more intricate with the risks being as high as they are. Combat therefore you'd expect to be generally longer. The session was designed around this encounter, much forethought and planning was done beforehand. So now combat is a few hours, especially for a climactic battle such as this...why do you now call it a problem? </p><p></p><p>Yes it would be annoying as a player to be out of the combat, but I'd still have fun watching, advising and jesting with my mates and I would certainly prefer the DM to run the combat as best he could for the bad guys. I don't want any hollow victories. I definitely wouldn't use an example of a bad DM to make my point vs save vs suck. </p><p></p><p>This is all subjective preference, like some of us prefer certain editions or various mechanics (save vs suck, resting, GWM).</p><p>It is like you're saying the rest of us who do enjoy it are having BadWrongFun <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sadras, post: 7151281, member: 6688277"] We will have to disagree on this point. I don't think 8 years cuts it. No it isn't. Okay what do we know from this: 1. He was imprisoned; 2. PCs had no way of getting him out; 3. His character was the only spellcaster; 4. He waited 15 minutes; 5. He was called a jerk for leaving the game early; 6. DM said his actions were rude. Nowhere does he say he asked the DM if he could get out or if he would get out before the end of the session. From 15 minutes of play as a player I have no idea what twist a DM might do in the story. Yes he was right, and that DM roleplays the same even now according to GM. However, how was I to know from that first post the DM didn't have a plan to release the character in a surprising twist but decided to ignore it since PG left the table. Putting aside your personal issues with DMs, the bottomline Hussar is that this was an example of a poor DM (who acts the same way even now). Yes, GM was right for leaving that table/group. I agree with both you and PG there. BUT [B]Personally, I would have waited till the end of the session because its courteous. And given the DM the benefit of the doubt. If he failed (like he did), I would then talk to him after the game and offer some constructive criticism. I would evaluate the feeback from that and then decide if I'd be sticking around. Again in all fairness to PG, he was in his teens and its easy for me to say that now.[/B] DMs go to a lot of trouble to create/host an enjoyable game, but they are only human, they sometimes make poor judgements for the group. Players are allowed to offer advice to encourage and improve the fun at the table. Sometimes its a case of differing playstyles, but other times its a case of inexperience. Lastly, I don't believe its right to use a poor DM example to make one's case against save vs suck and refer to it the mechanic as 'failure design'. You do, again we will have to disagree. Yes but I wasn't in that game :) Say the party was 4th level, and the character was sidelined due to a save vs suck spell for one combat (10 minutes) are you ok with that? Say the party is 10th level, and the character was sidelined due to a save vs suck spell for (40 minutes) are you ok with that? Honestly, I think most of us here on Enworld would be ok with above. It doesn't happen every combat and its part of the risk/reward. Okay let us bring it back to the OP. The party is high level so there would be many movings parts and the choices even more intricate with the risks being as high as they are. Combat therefore you'd expect to be generally longer. The session was designed around this encounter, much forethought and planning was done beforehand. So now combat is a few hours, especially for a climactic battle such as this...why do you now call it a problem? Yes it would be annoying as a player to be out of the combat, but I'd still have fun watching, advising and jesting with my mates and I would certainly prefer the DM to run the combat as best he could for the bad guys. I don't want any hollow victories. I definitely wouldn't use an example of a bad DM to make my point vs save vs suck. This is all subjective preference, like some of us prefer certain editions or various mechanics (save vs suck, resting, GWM). It is like you're saying the rest of us who do enjoy it are having BadWrongFun :erm: [/QUOTE]
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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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