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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7151783" data-attributes="member: 22779">Perfectly fair.&nbsp; But, that does not give you any justification for judging others.&nbsp; The fact that you call other tables that don't want to play the way you do, &quot;Monte Haul&quot; tables (actually the wrong issue since Monte Haul refers to campaigns with far greater rewards than is justified for the levels of the characters) and characterizing other tables as &quot;cheating&quot; in favor of the players says a lot more about your personal preferences than anything about the issue at hand.There's a whole world of different choices between &quot;pure DPR&quot; and &quot;Sidelining a player for an entire session&quot;.&nbsp; Fortunately, 5e largely leans on the &quot;don't sideline PC's for extended periods of time&quot; by making very few options available to sideline a player for extended periods of time.&nbsp; Even Save or Die options are typically not one shot affairs with even death being little more than a speed bump considering Revivify is an option available to low level parties.&nbsp; Save or Suck options are almost always save per round.No, the issue in the OP's case is that he chose a number of Save or Suck spells that were outliers.&nbsp; The Banishment thing obviously is an issue for ANY planar adventure.&nbsp; It's not like Banishment is a particularly high level spell.&nbsp; This means that you can sideline a PC pretty much instantly, at any time and, unless the PC's have a significant amount of magic, permanently, at least for that adventure.&nbsp; You cannot presume that every group will have Plane Shift and Teleport - those are very high level spells and aren't available to every caster.&nbsp; Does that mean that high level groups that go on planar adventures MUST have a wizard, otherwise don't bother?&nbsp; Or, wouldn't a better option be to simply not use a Banishment spell?&nbsp; Or, maybe, just maybe, adjust the Banishment spell a little bit so that it doesn't completely sideline a PC on a failed save?&nbsp; Oh, right, doing that is cheating and creates Monte Haul games with no consequences.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid&nbsp; &nbsp; :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" />&nbsp; Right.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7151783, member: 22779"] Perfectly fair. But, that does not give you any justification for judging others. The fact that you call other tables that don't want to play the way you do, "Monte Haul" tables (actually the wrong issue since Monte Haul refers to campaigns with far greater rewards than is justified for the levels of the characters) and characterizing other tables as "cheating" in favor of the players says a lot more about your personal preferences than anything about the issue at hand. There's a whole world of different choices between "pure DPR" and "Sidelining a player for an entire session". Fortunately, 5e largely leans on the "don't sideline PC's for extended periods of time" by making very few options available to sideline a player for extended periods of time. Even Save or Die options are typically not one shot affairs with even death being little more than a speed bump considering Revivify is an option available to low level parties. Save or Suck options are almost always save per round. No, the issue in the OP's case is that he chose a number of Save or Suck spells that were outliers. The Banishment thing obviously is an issue for ANY planar adventure. It's not like Banishment is a particularly high level spell. This means that you can sideline a PC pretty much instantly, at any time and, unless the PC's have a significant amount of magic, permanently, at least for that adventure. You cannot presume that every group will have Plane Shift and Teleport - those are very high level spells and aren't available to every caster. Does that mean that high level groups that go on planar adventures MUST have a wizard, otherwise don't bother? Or, wouldn't a better option be to simply not use a Banishment spell? Or, maybe, just maybe, adjust the Banishment spell a little bit so that it doesn't completely sideline a PC on a failed save? Oh, right, doing that is cheating and creates Monte Haul games with no consequences. :uhoh: Right. [/QUOTE]

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