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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 7151947" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to challenge players without indefinitely sidelining them or fudging anything. You can certainly run a campaign that avoids sidelining without it becoming Monty Haul.</p><p></p><p>For example, GM's DM could have placed a trap in the dungeon that simply dealt damage or perhaps removed a limb. I don't know anyone who considers PC dismemberment to be taking it easy on the players.</p><p></p><p>It's not difficult to avoid sidelining the players if you don't want to, it just takes a little bit of forethought. For example, I enjoy using the Deck of Many Things, but I've never cared much for Donjon or the Void (random chance to be forced to roll up a new character - whoopdedoo). So I created my own version of the deck. For example, in the case of Donjon a randomly determined limb of the character's is entombed. The PC can reattach the limb - IF he can find it. Now the player has to play an adventurer who struggles with a missing limb, and has an instant hook to go searching for the limb, which is far more interesting in my book (admittedly, the player could choose to simply retire the character and reroll). I also changed some of the good cards. In the case of The Sun, rather than gaining 50,000 xp, the PC instead gains enough xp to put them halfway through their next level. Because while it isn't gamebreaking, I don't really want 6th level characters to suddenly become 10th level characters with a single lucky draw.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I see nothing wrong with abilities that can sideline characters so long as they are used with a modicum of restraint. I have a rule for encounter design where I won't throw more full casters at the party than the party itself possesses. The reason for this is that I don't consider it to be fair unless the characters are built to counter casters, which I've yet to see my players do (and as I stated in an earlier post, I draw a distinction between the DM playing unfairly and the NPCs doing so). Admittedly, I have ignored that rule on at least one occasion, but only with good reason. At the time the party (a druid, a rogue, and two warrior types) unwittingly recovered the phylactery of a powerful lich (the BBEG of the campaign which would follow this one). Unsurprisingly, the lich was eager to recover it, so after observing them to determine their capabilities he sent two Helmed Horrors and two undead Mages to steal the phylactery. The enemy approached under cover of night and wrecked the party. The druid in particular was very frustrated that the mages kept counterspelling his spells (and I can't really blame him). In fairness they put up a very good fight, managing to kill both mages and one of the Helmed Horrors. However, that was all that was needed as the construct took the phylactery and flew away, and the party was unable to pursue (all but one were unconscious, and I think the remaining guy was very low on hp). After the session they expressed to me that they were very frustrated with that encounter (it was the first real defeat they'd had in that campaign) and they felt like it was unbeatable. I explained to them that there was a very powerful bad guy out there that wanted this item, and that he had dispatched agents who he was confident could recover it. As such I had stacked the deck against them in this encounter. It was hypothetically winnable (they came reasonably close), but it had not been designed to be fair. However, the mission was to recover the item; the enemy's priority was to recover the item, not to kill them. (The lich didn't care whether the PCs lived or died, so long as he got his phylactery back.) They were satisfied with that answer. As the DM I could have had the lich dispatch a dozen Helmed Horrors and a dozen undead Mages. Given that, as DM, I have carte blanche to give the lich any resources I want, I could have even justified it. But it would have been lame as hell. I guess what I'm getting at is that this old adage applies to DMing just as much as anything else: "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 7151947, member: 53980"] This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to challenge players without indefinitely sidelining them or fudging anything. You can certainly run a campaign that avoids sidelining without it becoming Monty Haul. For example, GM's DM could have placed a trap in the dungeon that simply dealt damage or perhaps removed a limb. I don't know anyone who considers PC dismemberment to be taking it easy on the players. It's not difficult to avoid sidelining the players if you don't want to, it just takes a little bit of forethought. For example, I enjoy using the Deck of Many Things, but I've never cared much for Donjon or the Void (random chance to be forced to roll up a new character - whoopdedoo). So I created my own version of the deck. For example, in the case of Donjon a randomly determined limb of the character's is entombed. The PC can reattach the limb - IF he can find it. Now the player has to play an adventurer who struggles with a missing limb, and has an instant hook to go searching for the limb, which is far more interesting in my book (admittedly, the player could choose to simply retire the character and reroll). I also changed some of the good cards. In the case of The Sun, rather than gaining 50,000 xp, the PC instead gains enough xp to put them halfway through their next level. Because while it isn't gamebreaking, I don't really want 6th level characters to suddenly become 10th level characters with a single lucky draw. Personally, I see nothing wrong with abilities that can sideline characters so long as they are used with a modicum of restraint. I have a rule for encounter design where I won't throw more full casters at the party than the party itself possesses. The reason for this is that I don't consider it to be fair unless the characters are built to counter casters, which I've yet to see my players do (and as I stated in an earlier post, I draw a distinction between the DM playing unfairly and the NPCs doing so). Admittedly, I have ignored that rule on at least one occasion, but only with good reason. At the time the party (a druid, a rogue, and two warrior types) unwittingly recovered the phylactery of a powerful lich (the BBEG of the campaign which would follow this one). Unsurprisingly, the lich was eager to recover it, so after observing them to determine their capabilities he sent two Helmed Horrors and two undead Mages to steal the phylactery. The enemy approached under cover of night and wrecked the party. The druid in particular was very frustrated that the mages kept counterspelling his spells (and I can't really blame him). In fairness they put up a very good fight, managing to kill both mages and one of the Helmed Horrors. However, that was all that was needed as the construct took the phylactery and flew away, and the party was unable to pursue (all but one were unconscious, and I think the remaining guy was very low on hp). After the session they expressed to me that they were very frustrated with that encounter (it was the first real defeat they'd had in that campaign) and they felt like it was unbeatable. I explained to them that there was a very powerful bad guy out there that wanted this item, and that he had dispatched agents who he was confident could recover it. As such I had stacked the deck against them in this encounter. It was hypothetically winnable (they came reasonably close), but it had not been designed to be fair. However, the mission was to recover the item; the enemy's priority was to recover the item, not to kill them. (The lich didn't care whether the PCs lived or died, so long as he got his phylactery back.) They were satisfied with that answer. As the DM I could have had the lich dispatch a dozen Helmed Horrors and a dozen undead Mages. Given that, as DM, I have carte blanche to give the lich any resources I want, I could have even justified it. But it would have been lame as hell. I guess what I'm getting at is that this old adage applies to DMing just as much as anything else: "just because you can, doesn't mean you should." [/QUOTE]
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