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<blockquote data-quote="Helldritch" data-source="post: 6910285" data-attributes="member: 6855114">No need to make a stealth check in a room with combat. Perception is not a trump against everything. If the invisible opponent tries to move around, yes the perception check (if the room is silent) will enable you to determine with a good approximation where your opponent is. To make a perception check you need to oppose it to something stealth. With your perception you won't see where the opponent is but you will hear it. Or maybe he will leave a foot print. No move means no stealth check. The perception roll should be a phony one made at disadvantage.Take the example of an episode of Buffy. She was fighting an invisible opponent. She was taking quite a beating until she told Cordelia to shut up. She (in game terms) made a perception roll to hear where the opponent was moving and she then hit her opponent hard as the enemy missed her stealth check, thus enabling dear Buffy to win.Silence is required to make a perception check. With only one sense to rely on (hearing), you are at a disadvantage on the check. Perception is not detect invisibility or true seeing. It's not an all seeing eye that will enable you to circumvent anything that you want. All you take into account is that you always know what the enemy did. Well, sorry for you but you can never be sure of what was done. You can guess, but you can't be sure. Did he just misty step backward out of the room and stealthily move aside and hid in the corridor? Did he just quaffed a potion of invisibility? Did he teleported or simply phased in the etheral border?&nbsp; And what are your chances to detect an unmoving invisible object? Pretty hard, almost impossible. That should imply a DC 20 with disadvantage. The same should apply with the warlock. But if you succeed, he's toast.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Helldritch, post: 6910285, member: 6855114"] No need to make a stealth check in a room with combat. Perception is not a trump against everything. If the invisible opponent tries to move around, yes the perception check (if the room is silent) will enable you to determine with a good approximation where your opponent is. To make a perception check you need to oppose it to something stealth. With your perception you won't see where the opponent is but you will hear it. Or maybe he will leave a foot print. No move means no stealth check. The perception roll should be a phony one made at disadvantage. Take the example of an episode of Buffy. She was fighting an invisible opponent. She was taking quite a beating until she told Cordelia to shut up. She (in game terms) made a perception roll to hear where the opponent was moving and she then hit her opponent hard as the enemy missed her stealth check, thus enabling dear Buffy to win. Silence is required to make a perception check. With only one sense to rely on (hearing), you are at a disadvantage on the check. Perception is not detect invisibility or true seeing. It's not an all seeing eye that will enable you to circumvent anything that you want.[U] All you take into account is that you always know what the enemy did[/U]. Well, sorry for you but you can never be sure of what was done. You can guess, but you can't be sure. Did he just misty step backward out of the room and stealthily move aside and hid in the corridor? Did he just quaffed a potion of invisibility? Did he teleported or simply phased in the etheral border? And what are your chances to detect an unmoving invisible object? Pretty hard, almost impossible. That should imply a DC 20 with disadvantage. The same should apply with the warlock. But if you succeed, he's toast. [/QUOTE]

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