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<blockquote data-quote="ThePolarBear" data-source="post: 6910789" data-attributes="member: 6857451">As always, i've added the number and trimmed the posts so that it isn't too much of a wall.1) PHB 192, Hide section. &quot;When you take the Hide action...&quot; You forgot to add this in your analysis, and then...2a&amp;b)Helldritch starts his point with &quot;Part of the hide action...&quot;. One with the Shadows states that you can't take actions (btw, bonus actions are &quot;additional actions&quot;, so not even a rogue can get around it with Cunning Action). Since you are not hidden yet, you can't take an hide action. And don't forget the action economy since you can't take another action until the next turn, Action Surge excluded. Even then you can: &nbsp;- take your Hide action before becoming invisible, and then invisibility has no bearing on your &quot;can hide or not&quot; equation, and it's just a bonus on top of an already &quot;successful&quot; action (though you might have other benefits)&nbsp;- hide afterwards, breaking invisibility and having to check for all the hiding requirements again, or you end up visible AND spotted, no roll necessary.All of Helldritch examples are flawed, and point 2 of mellored can't be used to hide in plain sight unless that sight comes after the power has already been used, since the invocation has no power to do so (guess this was your intention with the point, am i right?)Out of combat: No problem, you do not need to do actions to hide out of combat. In combat? Though luck.3) As already said, you are not &quot;dm&quot;ing wrong. I just think it's more of an out of combat invocation then anything else. Smart players could use it for other reasons, and could come up as a decent alternative to the hide action, but that's not a power for hiding in combat. At most, to help an hidden warlock hide better in combat.4) I would not consider invisibility an &quot;improved&quot; dodge. By not taking the dodge action instead you impose disadvantage to things that target with sight instead of being limited (or helped) by the &quot;you can see&quot; part of the dodge action. You do not gain advantage on dex saving throws (against everything, not just things you can see), you are not limited by the &quot;0 speed&quot; limitation but must not move to keep those boni (other thread i wrote bonuses... poor me). You can't act, not even taking reactions if you want to stay invisible. You gain advantage on your next attack roll but then you are no longer invisible. Pros and cons, so not really a direct step up.By the way Helldritch: I'm not trying to come out as a grammar nazi but... enemy and enemies have only one N, and appear and disappear have 2 P's. I'm not a native english or american speaker, so i also will make a lot of errors (one that always tries to sneak in is &quot;Disvantage&quot; instead of &quot;disadvantage&quot;). Please, do not take this as an insult, i would like to be corrected to get better at writing. Thanks <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Edit: Little correction: when i write &quot;since you are not hidden, you can't hide&quot; i mean &quot;since you are not heavily obscured, you can't hide&quot;. Yay for spellchecking -.-</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ThePolarBear, post: 6910789, member: 6857451"] As always, i've added the number and trimmed the posts so that it isn't too much of a wall. 1) PHB 192, Hide section. "When you take the Hide action..." You forgot to add this in your analysis, and then... 2a&b)Helldritch starts his point with "Part of the hide action...". One with the Shadows states that you can't take actions (btw, bonus actions are "additional actions", so not even a rogue can get around it with Cunning Action). Since you are not hidden yet, you can't take an hide action. And don't forget the action economy since you can't take another action until the next turn, Action Surge excluded. Even then you can: - take your Hide action before becoming invisible, and then invisibility has no bearing on your "can hide or not" equation, and it's just a bonus on top of an already "successful" action (though you might have other benefits) - hide afterwards, breaking invisibility and having to check for all the hiding requirements again, or you end up visible AND spotted, no roll necessary. All of Helldritch examples are flawed, and point 2 of mellored can't be used to hide in plain sight unless that sight comes after the power has already been used, since the invocation has no power to do so (guess this was your intention with the point, am i right?) Out of combat: No problem, you do not need to do actions to hide out of combat. In combat? Though luck. 3) As already said, you are not "dm"ing wrong. I just think it's more of an out of combat invocation then anything else. Smart players could use it for other reasons, and could come up as a decent alternative to the hide action, but that's not a power for hiding in combat. At most, to help an hidden warlock hide better in combat. 4) I would not consider invisibility an "improved" dodge. By not taking the dodge action instead you impose disadvantage to things that target with sight instead of being limited (or helped) by the "you can see" part of the dodge action. You do not gain advantage on dex saving throws (against everything, not just things you can see), you are not limited by the "0 speed" limitation but must not move to keep those boni (other thread i wrote bonuses... poor me). You can't act, not even taking reactions if you want to stay invisible. You gain advantage on your next attack roll but then you are no longer invisible. Pros and cons, so not really a direct step up. By the way Helldritch: I'm not trying to come out as a grammar nazi but... enemy and enemies have only one N, and appear and disappear have 2 P's. I'm not a native english or american speaker, so i also will make a lot of errors (one that always tries to sneak in is "Disvantage" instead of "disadvantage"). Please, do not take this as an insult, i would like to be corrected to get better at writing. Thanks :D Edit: Little correction: when i write "since you are not hidden, you can't hide" i mean "since you are not heavily obscured, you can't hide". Yay for spellchecking -.- [/QUOTE]

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