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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6354880" data-attributes="member: 42582">Best suggestion on the thread so far.As [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] points out on this thread, and as was discussed at length, with many worked examples, on the &quot;weak saving throws&quot; thread, the need for the feat doesn't arise until upper levels.A 13th level wizard casts spells with a save DC of 18 (8 +5 for stat +5 for prof). So a fighter with +1 for WIS, or a mage with +1 for CON, has a 20% chance of saving (17+ required). If proficiency is acquired, the chance at 13th level goes to 45% (12+ required).With indomitable, the fighter's chance to save with a +1 vs DC 18 is 1 - (4/5)^2, = 9/25 or 36%. With indomitable and proficiency, the fighter's chance to save vs DC 18 becomes 1 - (11/20)^2 = 279/400, or about 70%.You are not taking it for the stat boost, you are taking it for the save boost.Raising defences in 4e was not as important (although it can be quite viable for certain builds); but at least in my experience 4e players absolutely take feats and abilities that let them overcome SoS effects. In my game every PC has Superior Will, the Paladin also has Dispater's Iron Discipline to get a bonus to save vs daze, stun and dom, and the fighter has a utility power that lets him negate a dom effect once per day. In 5e, buffing saving throws via this feat is the functional equivalent of those 4e abilities.That strikers me as an odd claim. I'm having trouble seeing what else the PC build mechanics are for! They don't have any intrinsic value that I can see.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6354880, member: 42582"] Best suggestion on the thread so far. As [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] points out on this thread, and as was discussed at length, with many worked examples, on the "weak saving throws" thread, the need for the feat doesn't arise until upper levels. A 13th level wizard casts spells with a save DC of 18 (8 +5 for stat +5 for prof). So a fighter with +1 for WIS, or a mage with +1 for CON, has a 20% chance of saving (17+ required). If proficiency is acquired, the chance at 13th level goes to 45% (12+ required). With indomitable, the fighter's chance to save with a +1 vs DC 18 is 1 - (4/5)^2, = 9/25 or 36%. With indomitable and proficiency, the fighter's chance to save vs DC 18 becomes 1 - (11/20)^2 = 279/400, or about 70%. You are not taking it for the stat boost, you are taking it for the save boost. Raising [I]defences[/I] in 4e was not as important (although it can be quite viable for certain builds); but at least in my experience 4e players absolutely take feats and abilities that let them overcome SoS effects. In my game every PC has Superior Will, the Paladin also has Dispater's Iron Discipline to get a bonus to save vs daze, stun and dom, and the fighter has a utility power that lets him negate a dom effect once per day. In 5e, buffing saving throws via this feat is the functional equivalent of those 4e abilities. That strikers me as an odd claim. I'm having trouble seeing what else the PC build mechanics are for! They don't have any intrinsic value that I can see. [/QUOTE]

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