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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xeviat" data-source="post: 9648906" data-attributes="member: 57494">I'm seeing a lot of good discussion, including bits and pieces of what I think should be done to balance all the scores. But first, some of my thoughts on the issue:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">We should keep the 6 ability scores, as I don't want to remove D&D traditions. They "feel" something to players.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Offensive uses do not balance the ability scores. Everyone is encouraged to keep one offensive stat maxed, 16+ starting is basically assumed, this applies equally to everyone.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The only time offensive stat functions affect balance is when an otherwise overpowered stat (Dexterity) also can be used for offense.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Likewise, skills don't exactly balance the ability scores. People use the skills they want to for the character they built. Someone having low Persuasion, for example, is a statement of how the player wants to play their character.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Saving throws are where a lot of the balance can be achieved. We have 6/7 defenses that players can't decide to not get targeted.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Purely passive ability scores are bad. I'm looking at you, Constitution.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Every ability score needs a passive function that feels good to have high and feels bad to have low.</li> </ul>This leads me to my fundamental feeling about the ability scores: Constitution is the chief problem. Constitution is a problem because everyone wants it high, but it doesn't feel cool when it's high. In my 10 years with 5E and 24 years with D&D in general, most PC Constitution scores have been 14. Rarely, I'll see a Barbarian who pushes higher, and I've seen a few 12s, but that's it. The only time this wasn't the case was in 4th Edition.In 4th Edition, you added your Constitution Score to your HP, but that's it. You didn't get Con mod to HP every level. This made Con a one time HP boost, but the difference between 10 and 20 HP disappeared after a few levels. But, Con mod was applied to your number of healing surges, which recovered 1/4th of your HP when used (by a healing spell, a class ability, or just spent during short rests). This meant a high Constitution score helped you recover HP throughout the day. It effectively increased your daily HP without effecting your per combat health as much. If you were a ranged character, you could justify even an 8 Con, relying upon your party to defend you and focusing on your strengths.That doesn't happen in 5E. 95% of characters in the games I've ran have 14 con. Some say this is a problem with point buy, but you'll run into it with any ability score generation method except for roll in order.So what's my solution?<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Each stat needs a reasonable passive that feels good when it's high and feels like a penalty when it's low.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Each stat needs an equally frequent saving throw. Saving throws should handle all defensive rolls, rather than skills being used defensively. All saving throws should be proficient; the difference in ability scores is enough variance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Each stat needs skills that feel good to have. Skills should not have defensive rolls; you choose to use a skill.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Offensive stat uses don't balance the stats, but they do provide for role protection and class thematic overlap.</li> </ol>So here are my proposed house rules:SAVING THROWS AND DCsAll characters and creatures are proficient in all saves; this helps even out the growing difference between tertiary stats and primary stats. Save DCs are now 10 + Mod + Proficiency, evening out with d20 + Mod + Proficiency for saves. (This is technically a penalty to characters' formerly proficient saves; maybe those can be replaced with floating +2s or something else if needed, but I don't think it is).STRENGTHStrength measures your muscle power.Skills: Athletics (for climbing, jumping, and swimming) and "Power" (new skill for checks to see if you can lift, move, or throw objects)Saves: Strength saves protect against being moved, knocked prone, grabbed, or other attempts to physically manipulate you.Passive: Carrying capacity, weapon prerequisites, armor prerequisites. (Weapon and Armor prerequisites will make you feel it when you dump Strength. No longer can a Druid get away with having an 8 Strength if they want to wear armor when they're not wild-shaped. These requirements should be low-ish, but 11 for light, 13 for medium, and 15 for heavy feels about right.)Offensive: melee and thrown weapon attacksDEXTERITYDexterity measures your flexibility and coordination.Skills: Acrobatics (for balance, tumbling, and squeezing), Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. (Personally, I would love a 4th, but I wouldn't want to split any of those 3).Saves: Dexterity saves help avoid area attacks or attempts to touch you.Passive: AC (limited by armor, thus it is effectively paired with Strength; high strength allows for heavy armor, letting you have a lower Dex, high Dex allows for optimal use of lighter armor, letting you have lower Str; I do go back and forth on if AC should just be a saving throw, but that's a bigger discussion).Offensive: finesse and projectile weapon attacksCONSTITUTIONConstitution measures your endurance and health.Skills: Two returning skills; Concentration (for not getting interrupted and for mind over matter biofeedback stuff) and Endurance (for actively pushing through exhaustion and temporarily ignoring penalties).Saves: Constitution saves for resisting death, poison, disease, and other recovery things (like con saves to shake off blindness from a flash of light).Passive: Con score to HP, Con mod to HD recovery.Offensive: really thinking Sorcerers should use Con as their casting stat, and my Elementalist half-caster.INTELLIGENCEIntelligence measures your memory and reasoning ability.Skills: Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion. (I'd really like to fold Investigation into the other 4 knowledge skills and have which skill applies to which kind of Study checks be based on the nature of what you're studying, but I can't figure out a way to do that. I'd like 4 skills to be the norm, except for Str and Con, but that might not be possible).Saves: Intelligence saves are used to realize illusions are fake and also for mental attacks that you could "avoid".Passive: Bonus proficiencies (skills, tools, or languages). Wizards are rebalanced by the introduction of the Concentration skill and making Arcana checks more required ("skill taxes"); Artificers and Mystics/Psions getting more skills feels fine too. Now, a 10 or 12 tertiary Intelligence feels better than an 8, but 8 isn't insurmountable.Offensive: casting stat for Wizards, Artificers, and Mystics/Psions.WISDOMWisdom measures your perceptiveness and understanding.Skills: Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, and Survival (thinking on my desire to remove Investigation, I'm considering merging Investigation and Perception while also removing Perception's defensive uses. You decide to make a perception check when you're searching for something; you make a Wisdom save when something tries to avoid your passive senses. Also considering rolling Animal Handling and Survival together, just to have 4 skills, while also allowing Persuasion and Intimidation to be used on animals, just to round out 4 skills per stat).Saves: Wisdom saves are used to resist mental attacks that you can't "avoid". Probably a longer discussion is needed.Passive: This is tough. Passive Insight and Passive Perception could be what it is, but those could also just be Wisdom saves. Then again, having them be passive helps to not tip off players that someone is lying or sneaking. I like these being Wisdom saves so no one feels like Perception is a must have skill to avoid being Assassinated.Offensive: casting stat for Clerics, Druids, and Rangers.CHARISMACharisma measures your social presence and influence.Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Performance.Saves: Charisma saves are used to resist mental attacks against your identity, like Banishment, Emotions, or Polymorphing.Passive: Initial NPC reactions (Charismatic people are more liked in first impressions) and maybe Contacts (you get a number of NPC contacts based on your Charisma score)?Offensive: casting stat for Bards, Warlocks, and PaladinsI know that's a lot, but I'm hoping some of my thoughts are helpful.</blockquote>

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