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<blockquote data-quote="fusangite" data-source="post: 1165661" data-attributes="member: 7240">Clark411 says,I'm happy to drop the good and evil from my post if it means that my ideas will be more palatable.So, you don't see a desire for liberty as equally intrinsic in people as a desire for social cohesion? I do see the maintenance of one's liberty as a fairly basic human impulse.I think one thing that is making our debate problematic is that a lot of people tend to see alignment as something that frequently makes people go against their rational self-interest. To me, what makes a society chaotic is not inefficiency, disobedience or lack of a codified structure, it is design and shared objectives. If the society's basic values are human liberty, less government and the maintenance of individual choice, I see no reason to force this society to run inefficiently and contrary to its own interest just because it is &quot;chaotic.&quot;Similarly, I see no reason that a lawful society must be efficient just because the ethos of the culture is the subordination of individual choice and liberty to a collective good. Indeed, as lawful societies are more likely to build large bureaucracies, in a sense, I see them as more likely to fall victim to inefficiency or corruption.When I design villains in my campaigns, I refuse to let their alignment handicap them in how they run their day to day lives; my villains' objectives are based on their alignment but this doesn't mean that I should handicap them in achieving those objectives by virtue of the very alignment they are trying to fulfill.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="fusangite, post: 1165661, member: 7240"] Clark411 says, I'm happy to drop the good and evil from my post if it means that my ideas will be more palatable. So, you don't see a desire for liberty as equally intrinsic in people as a desire for social cohesion? I do see the maintenance of one's liberty as a fairly basic human impulse. I think one thing that is making our debate problematic is that a lot of people tend to see alignment as something that frequently makes people go against their rational self-interest. To me, what makes a society chaotic is not inefficiency, disobedience or lack of a codified structure, it is design and shared objectives. If the society's basic values are human liberty, less government and the maintenance of individual choice, I see no reason to force this society to run inefficiently and contrary to its own interest just because it is "chaotic." Similarly, I see no reason that a lawful society must be efficient just because the ethos of the culture is the subordination of individual choice and liberty to a collective good. Indeed, as lawful societies are more likely to build large bureaucracies, in a sense, I see them as more likely to fall victim to inefficiency or corruption. When I design villains in my campaigns, I refuse to let their alignment handicap them in how they run their day to day lives; my villains' [b]objectives[/b] are based on their alignment but this doesn't mean that I should handicap them in achieving those objectives by virtue of the very alignment they are trying to fulfill. [/QUOTE]

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