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Is it possible to have a Chaotic society?
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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1166460" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>This is exactly why I think real world examples are more appropriate than fantasy literature examples. This is a great series of lines illustrating cultural differences. However, it's almost certain that, in practice, any real "barbarian" tribe would have certain respected members whose voices and opinions commanded more than just their own lives. Their leaders might not have formally recognized positions--although most do--but they would exist. Using fantasy literature as primary examples gives us a greater tendency to take dialogues like this at face value.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is really the straw that breaks the camel's back for the law/chaos alignment axis as far as I'm concerned. This is a very clearly a part of the D&D concept of law/chaos and has been so from the beginning. Yet IRL, it has nothing to do with the tendencies of people towards ordered societies, societies that respect property rights, the rule of law rather than the rule of men, or any of the other ideas associated with law in D&D. </p><p></p><p>Quite the opposite. IRL, "primitive" cultures with fewer formal institutions and fewer formal power structures are generally far more traditionally minded than more modern cultures with intricate power structures and thousands of pages of formalized law. This is true in gaming tradition as well. The stereotypical barbarians follow their traditions in the face of the laws of the civilized men of the cities. In D&Dland, that generally makes them chaotic. Every single chaotic shaman/druid following tribe, every single third world kleptocracy, every middle eastern modelled monarchy is filled to the brim with so-called chaotic tribesmen who have very high regards for the traditions and customs set forth by their tribe and family--often higher than the neutral and lawful-neutral city dwellers have for their laws. (Think about how many times the N or LN city watch has been portrayed as corrupt; then think about how many mods have featured a corrupt (human or PC race) CN Or CG tribal chief who could be bribed to ignore the traditions of his people. The difference is instructive). Of course, by other standards that are equally a part of the D&D ideas of law and chaos, those tribesmen are equally paragons of chaos.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1166460, member: 3146"] This is exactly why I think real world examples are more appropriate than fantasy literature examples. This is a great series of lines illustrating cultural differences. However, it's almost certain that, in practice, any real "barbarian" tribe would have certain respected members whose voices and opinions commanded more than just their own lives. Their leaders might not have formally recognized positions--although most do--but they would exist. Using fantasy literature as primary examples gives us a greater tendency to take dialogues like this at face value. This is really the straw that breaks the camel's back for the law/chaos alignment axis as far as I'm concerned. This is a very clearly a part of the D&D concept of law/chaos and has been so from the beginning. Yet IRL, it has nothing to do with the tendencies of people towards ordered societies, societies that respect property rights, the rule of law rather than the rule of men, or any of the other ideas associated with law in D&D. Quite the opposite. IRL, "primitive" cultures with fewer formal institutions and fewer formal power structures are generally far more traditionally minded than more modern cultures with intricate power structures and thousands of pages of formalized law. This is true in gaming tradition as well. The stereotypical barbarians follow their traditions in the face of the laws of the civilized men of the cities. In D&Dland, that generally makes them chaotic. Every single chaotic shaman/druid following tribe, every single third world kleptocracy, every middle eastern modelled monarchy is filled to the brim with so-called chaotic tribesmen who have very high regards for the traditions and customs set forth by their tribe and family--often higher than the neutral and lawful-neutral city dwellers have for their laws. (Think about how many times the N or LN city watch has been portrayed as corrupt; then think about how many mods have featured a corrupt (human or PC race) CN Or CG tribal chief who could be bribed to ignore the traditions of his people. The difference is instructive). Of course, by other standards that are equally a part of the D&D ideas of law and chaos, those tribesmen are equally paragons of chaos. [/QUOTE]
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