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<blockquote data-quote="Jack Daniel" data-source="post: 5420983" data-attributes="member: 694">Okay, I have to jump in here and stand up for the old school gamers (note the use of letters like &quot;c&quot; and &quot;s&quot; in spelling that phrase, by the way).&nbsp; This might just be ideology-driven punditry on my part, but I happen to disagree with a lot of what you're saying here.&nbsp; For one thing, sometimes new editions do in fact hearken back to what came before.&nbsp; One of 3rd edition's major selling points was that it sought to revive some of what was lost from 1st edition.&nbsp; It trumped the brining back of demons and devils, monks and assassins, half-orcs and barbarians.&nbsp; The slogan was &quot;back to the dungeon,&quot; which was kind of a backhanded way of saying &quot;away from 2nd edition's poncy setting-and-narrative style.&quot;&nbsp; And it worked.&nbsp; Many lapsed gamers who skipped 2nd edition came back for 3rd.Now, are there any grognards who really believe that 5th edition will look anything like older D&amp;D?&nbsp; Realistically, of course not.&nbsp; Attack tables, descending AC, and saving throws vs. dragon's breath are just never coming back.&nbsp; We know this.&nbsp; And we accept it; it's all just so much window-dressing anyway.&nbsp; But, speaking for this old-school gamer at least, I do look forward to 5th edition, because I might not be disappointed.&nbsp; I might be vindicated.&nbsp; That will happen if the new slogan is something like: &quot;back to the fantasy world&quot; or &quot;between the battles&quot; or &quot;beyond the encounter.&quot;&nbsp; If that is the guiding principle that drives the design of 5th edition, then 5th edition will indeed recapture the spirit of editions zero through three.&nbsp; And in that case it will probably bring back many lapsed gamers who skipped 4th edition to go play Pathfinder or a retro-clone (because they didn't want to play a glorified skirmish game that probably should've been called &quot;D&amp;D Tactics&quot;).I will argue this point, at least, until my lungs run out of breath and my fingers can type no more: so long as D&amp;D remains a relatively complex game that plays out like a series of battles with obligatory smatterings of &quot;story&quot; in between, the player base will not grow.&nbsp; Simplify, simplify, simplify.&nbsp; The only way to connect the game to young people is to hook them with a &quot;basic&quot; game that does what tabletop RPGs do well -- inspire the imagination -- and not what tabletop RPGs do poorly, which is try to be a battle sim without a CPU to do the number-crunching for you.&nbsp; In short: &lt;Frankenstein voice&gt; &quot;Math... bad!!!&nbsp; Roleplay... good!!!&nbsp; Battles... bad!!!&nbsp; Exploring... good!!!&quot; &lt;/Frankenstein voice&gt;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jack Daniel, post: 5420983, member: 694"] Okay, I have to jump in here and stand up for the old school gamers (note the use of letters like "c" and "s" in spelling that phrase, by the way). This might just be ideology-driven punditry on my part, but I happen to disagree with a lot of what you're saying here. For one thing, sometimes new editions do in fact hearken back to what came before. One of 3rd edition's major selling points was that it sought to revive some of what was lost from 1st edition. It trumped the brining back of demons and devils, monks and assassins, half-orcs and barbarians. The slogan was "back to the dungeon," which was kind of a backhanded way of saying "away from 2nd edition's poncy setting-and-narrative style." And it worked. Many lapsed gamers who skipped 2nd edition came back for 3rd. Now, are there any grognards who really believe that 5th edition will look anything like older D&D? Realistically, of course not. Attack tables, descending AC, and saving throws vs. dragon's breath are just never coming back. We know this. And we accept it; it's all just so much window-dressing anyway. But, speaking for this old-school gamer at least, I do look forward to 5th edition, because I might not be disappointed. I might be vindicated. That will happen if the new slogan is something like: "back to the fantasy world" or "between the battles" or "beyond the encounter." If [B]that[/B] is the guiding principle that drives the design of 5th edition, then 5th edition will indeed recapture the spirit of editions zero through three. And in that case it will probably bring back many lapsed gamers who skipped 4th edition to go play Pathfinder or a retro-clone (because they didn't want to play a glorified skirmish game that probably should've been called "D&D Tactics"). I will argue this point, at least, until my lungs run out of breath and my fingers can type no more: so long as D&D remains a relatively complex game that plays out like a series of battles with obligatory smatterings of "story" in between, the player base will not grow. Simplify, simplify, simplify. The only way to connect the game to young people is to hook them with a "basic" game that does what tabletop RPGs do well -- inspire the imagination -- and not what tabletop RPGs do poorly, which is try to be a battle sim without a CPU to do the number-crunching for you. In short: <Frankenstein voice> "Math... bad!!! Roleplay... good!!! Battles... bad!!! Exploring... good!!!" </Frankenstein voice> [/QUOTE]

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