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<blockquote data-quote="Stormonu" data-source="post: 5434715" data-attributes="member: 52734">For the most part, this is true.&nbsp; But one example I remember from C1 - Hidden Shrine in Tamoachan, there's a series of jumps you have to make across 4&quot; wide beams spaced 7' apart (a sort of jump/balance combo).&nbsp; It uses a Dex check, but on 4d6 (I remember this because I converted it for use in 3E some time back, and replacing the little subsystem with 3E skill checks stuck out in my mind).&nbsp; Again, without having the books handy, I have to wonder back how S2 - White Plume Mountain handled vaulting from one swinging disk to another in the mud room; I know it had the rules in that section somewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were quite different from the rules for C1.While you can certainly infer from the newer rules how to handle these types of skill checks now, my point is when these old spells and items first came out there was not a standard method for determining skill sets or probabilties (perhaps beyond a thief's skills), without a heavy dose of fiat (which is part of the reason a DM is there to figure out these things).&nbsp; As the game system evolved and these questions started getting answered by being presented in the core rules, the items and spells weren't scaled back or removed as standardized ways to perform the same thing became part of the standard skill set of every player.&nbsp; This came somewhat to a head in 3E, where spells and some items gave a free pass on certain checks.&nbsp; 4E tried to tackle this by sidelining those spells (and near-nullifying certain items) into rituals with exceptionally long (and in my opinion toooooo long) casting times and cost to encourage skill use over the use of these &quot;legacy&quot; spells.&nbsp; They're not gone (well, maybe essentials has finally nullified them), but they've been marginalized in the extreme (much to my annoyance - I don't want them to dominate, but they've been regulated to the &quot;nerfed so bad they aren't worth the effort&quot;).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stormonu, post: 5434715, member: 52734"] For the most part, this is true. But one example I remember from C1 - Hidden Shrine in Tamoachan, there's a series of jumps you have to make across 4" wide beams spaced 7' apart (a sort of jump/balance combo). It uses a Dex check, but on 4d6 (I remember this because I converted it for use in 3E some time back, and replacing the little subsystem with 3E skill checks stuck out in my mind). Again, without having the books handy, I have to wonder back how S2 - White Plume Mountain handled vaulting from one swinging disk to another in the mud room; I know it had the rules in that section somewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were quite different from the rules for C1. While you can certainly infer from the newer rules how to handle these types of skill checks now, my point is when these old spells and items first came out there was not a standard method for determining skill sets or probabilties (perhaps beyond a thief's skills), without a heavy dose of fiat (which is part of the reason a DM is there to figure out these things). As the game system evolved and these questions started getting answered by being presented in the core rules, the items and spells weren't scaled back or removed as standardized ways to perform the same thing became part of the standard skill set of every player. This came somewhat to a head in 3E, where spells and some items gave a free pass on certain checks. 4E tried to tackle this by sidelining those spells (and near-nullifying certain items) into rituals with exceptionally long (and in my opinion toooooo long) casting times and cost to encourage skill use over the use of these "legacy" spells. They're not gone (well, maybe essentials has finally nullified them), but they've been marginalized in the extreme (much to my annoyance - I don't want them to dominate, but they've been regulated to the "nerfed so bad they aren't worth the effort"). [/QUOTE]

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