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Is It Time for PF2 "Essentials"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 8203959" data-attributes="member: 2303"><p>Accepting the premise that things need to change. I am not knowledgeable enough to say HOW things ought to change, but there are lots of areas that need change. First a little background on me. I played PF1 a lot, and also got in under the hood and wrote over a dozen 3PP books for it, mainly for Purple Duck Games but also for Legendary Games and Everyman Games. And a last point, my own games were never about resource management, and I never saw a caster/martial balance problem - at least not in the caster's favor.</p><p></p><p>I participated in the PF2 play test and in discussions on the Paizo boards. I went trough the play test rulebook and made annotations that I then sent to Paizo and got a letter recognizing I had done some thorough work. I REALLY wanted to like this game. And then I gave up. I went from a fan to pitying Paizo for their bad decisions.</p><p></p><p>The main problem with PF2 is that it is not a role-playing game. It is a tactical wargame with role-playing elements. And its not even a good board game - it is way too complicated for that. This is the same problem 4E had. Paizo stopped supporting DnD when they went to 4E - I just can't see why they then made a version of 4E themselves. This is the error from which most other errors stem.</p><p></p><p>PF2 is full of the illusion of choice. There are loads and loads of sub-par options. Why would anyone ever play any elf but a cave elf? - they get darkvision 24/7, other elves get +1 on something on the second Thursday of the month. I would argue that entire spellcasting classes are sub-par, because saving throw DCs are just too low. We had many casters in the playtests, but they were very selective in which spells they picked - those where save was irrelevant. Save DC balance might have improved since the playtest, I havn't bothered to check. But it would have to change by a lot to satisfy me. Casters also got hit by the 3-action economy and fewer spell slots and fewer spells known for spontaneous casters.</p><p></p><p>The game uses mechanics where physics would work better. They have an arcane encumbrance system instead of measuring weight in pounds. And carrying capacity is linear; two people with Strength 12 carry more than a superhuman with Strength 20. Not very heroic.</p><p></p><p>The game has stat blocks that work differently for PCs and NPCs. Again, this is a board game.</p><p></p><p>The rules don't feel like they are connected to anything physical. An example is in animal companions; these can be different size, but the change in size has no impact on abilities. The only thing that changes is the space they take up on the battle map.</p><p></p><p>Lastly it is a class system. After writing scores of classes for PF1, I find I have grown out of class systems. This is a holy cow I don't ask Paizo to change, but on top of the other things I don't like, it helped me decide not to play PF2.</p><p></p><p>I tried to pick examples of things that illustrated wider points, so criticizing the specific examples I choose here won't convince me its any good.</p><p></p><p>So, what can be done? Well, all these decisions could be undone, but that would be Pathfinder 3, no a revised edition. And Paizo would likely lose the fans that actually do like PF2. They could make a PF3 modeled on 5E but with added options - that would essentially be Level Up! I still buy Paizo adventures, but I don't expect to buy any more rules from them. I am curious about the port to Savage Worlds, a system I like.</p><p></p><p>I have a migraine-child going on, excuse any language and typing errors.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 8203959, member: 2303"] Accepting the premise that things need to change. I am not knowledgeable enough to say HOW things ought to change, but there are lots of areas that need change. First a little background on me. I played PF1 a lot, and also got in under the hood and wrote over a dozen 3PP books for it, mainly for Purple Duck Games but also for Legendary Games and Everyman Games. And a last point, my own games were never about resource management, and I never saw a caster/martial balance problem - at least not in the caster's favor. I participated in the PF2 play test and in discussions on the Paizo boards. I went trough the play test rulebook and made annotations that I then sent to Paizo and got a letter recognizing I had done some thorough work. I REALLY wanted to like this game. And then I gave up. I went from a fan to pitying Paizo for their bad decisions. The main problem with PF2 is that it is not a role-playing game. It is a tactical wargame with role-playing elements. And its not even a good board game - it is way too complicated for that. This is the same problem 4E had. Paizo stopped supporting DnD when they went to 4E - I just can't see why they then made a version of 4E themselves. This is the error from which most other errors stem. PF2 is full of the illusion of choice. There are loads and loads of sub-par options. Why would anyone ever play any elf but a cave elf? - they get darkvision 24/7, other elves get +1 on something on the second Thursday of the month. I would argue that entire spellcasting classes are sub-par, because saving throw DCs are just too low. We had many casters in the playtests, but they were very selective in which spells they picked - those where save was irrelevant. Save DC balance might have improved since the playtest, I havn't bothered to check. But it would have to change by a lot to satisfy me. Casters also got hit by the 3-action economy and fewer spell slots and fewer spells known for spontaneous casters. The game uses mechanics where physics would work better. They have an arcane encumbrance system instead of measuring weight in pounds. And carrying capacity is linear; two people with Strength 12 carry more than a superhuman with Strength 20. Not very heroic. The game has stat blocks that work differently for PCs and NPCs. Again, this is a board game. The rules don't feel like they are connected to anything physical. An example is in animal companions; these can be different size, but the change in size has no impact on abilities. The only thing that changes is the space they take up on the battle map. Lastly it is a class system. After writing scores of classes for PF1, I find I have grown out of class systems. This is a holy cow I don't ask Paizo to change, but on top of the other things I don't like, it helped me decide not to play PF2. I tried to pick examples of things that illustrated wider points, so criticizing the specific examples I choose here won't convince me its any good. So, what can be done? Well, all these decisions could be undone, but that would be Pathfinder 3, no a revised edition. And Paizo would likely lose the fans that actually do like PF2. They could make a PF3 modeled on 5E but with added options - that would essentially be Level Up! I still buy Paizo adventures, but I don't expect to buy any more rules from them. I am curious about the port to Savage Worlds, a system I like. I have a migraine-child going on, excuse any language and typing errors. [/QUOTE]
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