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Is killing a Goblin who begs for mercy evil?
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 5739119" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>BINGO</p><p> </p><p>"He would not be concerned with your life."</p><p> </p><p>"No, he wouldn't. But if we stoop to their level, we are no better than them."</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>I think this demarcates an excellent point. The Paladin would, one must assume, not agree to serve a regime which itself is neither lawful nor good. If the laws of the kingdon allow unjust executions, then the Paladin simply cannot serve that kingdom.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>In such a regime, I would not expect the Paladin to serve that unjust law. To the first point, however, when the King asks the Paladin and his adventuring party to deal with the marauding Orcs plaguing a nearby village, how is acceptance of that mission not "being the King's executioner"?</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Demons and Devils become a bit of an odd case. Are outsiders "living beings" to begin with? Killing them here just sends them back there. I would typically (some games may differ) classify them as manifestations of their alignment. They are Evil made manifest, and not "life".</p><p> </p><p>To the second issue, the killing itself is not a good act. It is outweighed by the protection of innocent life, so the act as a whole becomes "good". A "more good" act would defend the inncocent without taking a life. But we live in an imperfect world. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I can definitely read it that way as well. But then I look at the context. These are 1st level spells. The Paladin gains this ability at 1st level. If it is nimpossible to Detect Evil on any being of less than 5 HD, in any way shape or form, what is the point of L1 characters having access to these abilities? Why not swap it with Divine Health - he won't ne using Detect Evil at L1 anyway, except to discover an Evil far too powerful for him to realistically deal with.</p><p> </p><p>I choose to conclude these abilities have some impact, even at L1, and as such that "there is evil here" includes low level evil, and evil intent. That, however, opens up another can of worms. Even a Good person can commit an Evil act. A Detect at the wrong time may not provide the full picture. EVEN A PALADIN could intend to commit an evil act, then pull away at the last second and remain a Paladin. And only a Paladin is so constrained that the commission of even a single evil act will taint him.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>First, I think the player should be advised that the DM considers the proposed action an evil act. The player may not, but in a world where evil is black and white, the Paladin should know the difference.</p><p> </p><p>Second, in my view at least, there are no "Paladin's Dliemmas" that can cost the Paladin his status. If there is no right answer, then there can be no wrong answer.</p><p> </p><p>Third, if you want Good, Heroic characters, then adherence to their morals must be rewarded, not penalized. It's easy to set the scene that the characters are in open warfare, and their Evil foes will use the vilest of tricks to achieve their ends. Shooting on sight is clearly not Good, but failure to do so is suicide. In such games, Heroic characters who remain true to the absolute ideals of Good are cannon fodder - they have no hope of survival, much less success. So we have two choices. Accept that the setting requires, at best Neutrals with Good tendencies who wish for a better world, or water down the standard for "Good" to allow it to mesh with a world that does not allow the ideals to succeed.</p><p> </p><p>If your game is one where sparing Gollum means Evil Wins, then it is one where a Good character such as Frodo cannot thirve, so expect your players to learn not to play such characters.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>If the punishment does not fit the crime, then he must refuse. The Paladin must be both lawful and good, but a single Evil act removes his paladinhood, so it is pretty clear which is expected to prevail should the two conflict. Perhaps this means the setting is one where a character cannot remain true to the ideals of Good and survive/succeed.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>In such case, it does not matter whether the other country is Goblin or Human. We simply assume they cannot be reformed and should be killed on sight, their babies slaughtered so they never grow to avenge their parents. </p><p> </p><p>If the Dwarves defile the ElvenWood for wood for their fires, the Elves are justified in killing Dwarves on sight.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I like the mention of Orcs. Last I looked, half orcs were a valid PC race. Slaughter all the children in that Orcish encampment, and a future PC is potentially slain. If they do not have free will, how is it that they are viable PC's?</p><p> </p><p>If I am to take this position with free-willed Goblins, I must also apply it to the citizenry of any nation where they are born and raised to beliefs that oppose my own, must I not? Is it a Good act for the Paladin to wipe out those foreign devils, whether they are a different species (perhaps Goblin, perhaps Elf), worship a different God, or have skin of a different colour? The Orcs were raised in Orcish ways, and the Easterlanders were raised in the ways of Easterland. Both are Evil. Both must be wiped out to the last survivor.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>The game can certainly be played on the basis that the only good Goblin (or Easternlander) is a dead Goblin (or Easterlander). The Paladin may well find himself in combat with such creatures, evil or neutral, and have no choice but to take their lives for the greater good. When he starts to consider it moral to take their lives, or even enjoy taking those lives, I don't see him as that heroic paragon of virtue he may see himself as.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 5739119, member: 6681948"] BINGO "He would not be concerned with your life." "No, he wouldn't. But if we stoop to their level, we are no better than them." I think this demarcates an excellent point. The Paladin would, one must assume, not agree to serve a regime which itself is neither lawful nor good. If the laws of the kingdon allow unjust executions, then the Paladin simply cannot serve that kingdom. In such a regime, I would not expect the Paladin to serve that unjust law. To the first point, however, when the King asks the Paladin and his adventuring party to deal with the marauding Orcs plaguing a nearby village, how is acceptance of that mission not "being the King's executioner"? Demons and Devils become a bit of an odd case. Are outsiders "living beings" to begin with? Killing them here just sends them back there. I would typically (some games may differ) classify them as manifestations of their alignment. They are Evil made manifest, and not "life". To the second issue, the killing itself is not a good act. It is outweighed by the protection of innocent life, so the act as a whole becomes "good". A "more good" act would defend the inncocent without taking a life. But we live in an imperfect world. I can definitely read it that way as well. But then I look at the context. These are 1st level spells. The Paladin gains this ability at 1st level. If it is nimpossible to Detect Evil on any being of less than 5 HD, in any way shape or form, what is the point of L1 characters having access to these abilities? Why not swap it with Divine Health - he won't ne using Detect Evil at L1 anyway, except to discover an Evil far too powerful for him to realistically deal with. I choose to conclude these abilities have some impact, even at L1, and as such that "there is evil here" includes low level evil, and evil intent. That, however, opens up another can of worms. Even a Good person can commit an Evil act. A Detect at the wrong time may not provide the full picture. EVEN A PALADIN could intend to commit an evil act, then pull away at the last second and remain a Paladin. And only a Paladin is so constrained that the commission of even a single evil act will taint him. First, I think the player should be advised that the DM considers the proposed action an evil act. The player may not, but in a world where evil is black and white, the Paladin should know the difference. Second, in my view at least, there are no "Paladin's Dliemmas" that can cost the Paladin his status. If there is no right answer, then there can be no wrong answer. Third, if you want Good, Heroic characters, then adherence to their morals must be rewarded, not penalized. It's easy to set the scene that the characters are in open warfare, and their Evil foes will use the vilest of tricks to achieve their ends. Shooting on sight is clearly not Good, but failure to do so is suicide. In such games, Heroic characters who remain true to the absolute ideals of Good are cannon fodder - they have no hope of survival, much less success. So we have two choices. Accept that the setting requires, at best Neutrals with Good tendencies who wish for a better world, or water down the standard for "Good" to allow it to mesh with a world that does not allow the ideals to succeed. If your game is one where sparing Gollum means Evil Wins, then it is one where a Good character such as Frodo cannot thirve, so expect your players to learn not to play such characters. If the punishment does not fit the crime, then he must refuse. The Paladin must be both lawful and good, but a single Evil act removes his paladinhood, so it is pretty clear which is expected to prevail should the two conflict. Perhaps this means the setting is one where a character cannot remain true to the ideals of Good and survive/succeed. In such case, it does not matter whether the other country is Goblin or Human. We simply assume they cannot be reformed and should be killed on sight, their babies slaughtered so they never grow to avenge their parents. If the Dwarves defile the ElvenWood for wood for their fires, the Elves are justified in killing Dwarves on sight. I like the mention of Orcs. Last I looked, half orcs were a valid PC race. Slaughter all the children in that Orcish encampment, and a future PC is potentially slain. If they do not have free will, how is it that they are viable PC's? If I am to take this position with free-willed Goblins, I must also apply it to the citizenry of any nation where they are born and raised to beliefs that oppose my own, must I not? Is it a Good act for the Paladin to wipe out those foreign devils, whether they are a different species (perhaps Goblin, perhaps Elf), worship a different God, or have skin of a different colour? The Orcs were raised in Orcish ways, and the Easterlanders were raised in the ways of Easterland. Both are Evil. Both must be wiped out to the last survivor. The game can certainly be played on the basis that the only good Goblin (or Easternlander) is a dead Goblin (or Easterlander). The Paladin may well find himself in combat with such creatures, evil or neutral, and have no choice but to take their lives for the greater good. When he starts to consider it moral to take their lives, or even enjoy taking those lives, I don't see him as that heroic paragon of virtue he may see himself as. [/QUOTE]
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