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Message: <blockquote data-quote="John Morrow" data-source="post: 2217694" data-attributes="member: 27012">Well, there is always the question of whether a single alignment violation, especially a well-intentioned one, is enough to destroy a Good alignment or revoke Paladinhood.  But if a Paladin or Cleric of an Outer Planes deity go and kill the agents of that deity, why wouldn't that deity revoke their powers?  Or do you have Good deities that let their followers exterminate each other without interference or clarification?  Druids, on the other hand, are a different matter.  But Paladins and Clerics don't serve their homeland or world.  They serve a deity and ideology.  You should also (re)read the distinction between Good and Neutral in the RAW.  I'd argue that placing your homeland or world above the greater Good or your deity is more Neutral than Good as per the RAW.If the deities can make mistakes, know that they can make mistakes (i.e., are aware that they are not omniscient), have good reason to believe that they might be wrong (the Evil Outer Planes creatures are working for the same thing), yet are willing to gamble the lives of millions, billions, or whatever of innocent sentients on a belief or guess that doing so will bring about Happy Piggyland for everyone, then I'd argue that they are not Good based on the RAW definitions.  Einstein felt that God didn't play dice with the universe.  I'd argue that Good deities shouldn't be playing Russian Roulette with the Universe, either.  The only way this could possibly work is if Good has deceived Evil to go along with it's plans, at which point we are back to killing the Deva being wrong and the Good deities cutting off a Good Cleric or Paladin that does such things.Again, this is why I think you've created a straw man.  If a Good deity's objective (as per the RAW definition) is to protect innocent life and respect the dignity of sentient creatures, they aren't going to flush everyone down the toilet on the hope that all work out for the best.   You are basically forcing a situation where Good is as potentially murderous and insane as Evil so that the players doubt that Good really is Good.Well your Celestials should be able to explain why they are so certain.  If they can't or aren't certain, then they shouldn't be playing Russian Roulette with the universe.Why is Good certain?Well, why can't what the Celestials are saying be true?  Because Fiends disagree with them?  The D&D alignment system isn't designed to support vague morality.  It's designed to make it easier for the players to sort out the good guys and the bad guys.  Good and Evil aren't designed to be random and equivalent teams to pick at random.  If you want vague morality, you should drop the RAW labels and let your players figure it out.  Given that Good Paladins and Clerics are likely empowered by Good Outer Plane deities who want to bring about the end of the world, why would such a deity continue to empower a character that is killing their agents and thwarting their plans?  So, no, I can't see it unless you have other Good deities who don't want to end the world that would empower them.  And that opens up the whole can of worms about certainty and Russian Roulette.That depends.  On what grounds do you consider your doubts more valid than the certainty of the Celestials?  Why are you defending your home (again, see the definition of Neutral in the RAW)?  It's like being given a choice between saving your family or saving an entire village of strangers.  Yes, there are plenty of valid reasons to save your own family over a village of strangers and few would call you Evil for making that choice, but by the standards of altruism that defines Good behavior in the RAW, you are obliged to put the greater Good above your own personal attachments.  As others have frequently said in alignment discussions, nobody ever said that being Good was easy.  And the ex-Paladin in my game was faced, in visions from Celestials, with the fact that he could someday have to make a choice between saving his own wife or a village of strangers and he'd have to make a choice.  And has the Celestial he followed put it, "No, it never gets any easier."If that's what Good Celestials are telling you.  If they aren't powering your Paladins and Clerics, then who is?  And if they are, why would they empower someone who is thwarting their plans and killing their servants?Yeah, I think you are trying to break the alignment system by breaking Good so that it isn't the obvious side to choose.  That may not be your intent but I think that's what you are doing.  The Good alignment isn't designed to be twisted so that Good is bad.</blockquote>

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