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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 2218482" data-attributes="member: 2067">I am *loving* the ideas this thread is giving me. Keep it up!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> True, I don't have an answer ATM for why the deities think the way they do, other than that "they are deities and the Know Things (TM)." Why the Gods are like this is something that I haven't worked out for myself yet (though maybe EN World will help!)...I was planning on never really accounting for it because Gods are Gods and they are Smarter Than Mortals. They know things you don't; thuogh they are not omniscient, they are still quite clever and quite powerful. They can be wrong, but they are less likely to be than any one person....Minor note: just working to POSSIBLY slaughter billions and billions of Non-[Good] lives. At the very least, though, this does destroy their free will -- it forces them to be [Good]. They will welcomingly embrace it, but it's an artificial adjustment. Chaos can be as paternal and overbearing as Law in it's own way...think of the destruction of lawful regimes of power for the cause of Liberty by some other mighty power who believes in Liberty -- it will be kind of imposed from the top down. You will be Free, like it or not. So the Archons and the Eladrin are as contentious as anyone else on what will happen after the end -- they are both 100% positive that their idea will be triumphant, as are the gods that represent their alignments. Freedom can be forced on people who don't freely choose it....that's just an issue of leadership, really.I like this idea enough that it's going in there. As the campaign develops, the Fey and the Dragons will try to *create* a deity of their own to protect the material plane....and I'm really tempted to have this backfire collossally, creating some grand Cthonian monstrosity that goes on a rampage to end all thinking life (since they all are, in some way, connected to the outer planes)....but that might be a bit much.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />Here's the contention, I guess -- must Good nessecarily suffer the existence of Evil (at least as far as this campaign goes)? I'm perfectly content with one side being wrong, but I'm not sure if it should be the Fey/Dragon coalition (who are down with the "better the evil we know than a potential nothingness" idea) or the Outsiders/Gods (who are 100% sure that the end of the world will produce a complete consensus of alignment, and just differ on which one they think it will produce).If you have to tolerate the existence of Evil to be Good, according to the alignments' implication right now, that's all well and good -- it's obvious that the Outsiders have become overzealous. But if you *cannot* tolerate the existence of Evil and still be Good, according to the alignments' implication, it's more obvious that the Dragon/Fey are just self-interested and paranoid and that free choice would be a *blessing* to have relieved -- none can choose wrong and everything will be happy.Gladly! I'm adhering to the RAW in saying that Paladins and Clerics don't need specific deities, though they often have them. Their power comes from the power of Good and Law (or whatever ideals a cleric upholds), and they often focus them to a particular deity's doctrine. The power doesn't come from outside, it comes from inside, but is often directed out. Non-Church clerical magic is considered a specific sort of blasphemey, but that's more because the Grand Church is a big world-spanning organization and less because it's actually true.However, because an alignment change nessecitates a divorcing from those forces (you can't call upon a faith you don't really believe), it's important for my cosmology to determine exactly what happens when you make a habit of killing devas and suchlike. If a PC creates a paladin and then I throw them against Archons, what are the implications of that, over the long term? Does the PC fall from grace, and thus make the player kind of angry because she lost power based on what she sees as DM fiat based on the nature of good and evil? Can you stay Good and be an Angelslayer? Regardless of the answer, it's going to be an interesting interaction, and I've gotten a good breadth of reactions so far....people just say No, or say Maybe Yes, or everywhere in between. It kind of rests on the issue of whether or not it is Good to have Evil in existence. Milton would come down solidly on the side of "Yes. You need to have Evil to be truly Good." I'm not so sure about D&D assumptions, though, and I'm definately interested in exploring them (because I'll probably be hearing all of these cases and more from my players. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />)</blockquote>

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