Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is long-term support of the game important?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 6279137" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>True, to a point. While everyone who subscribes has their own reasons to do so, my guess is that the overwhelming majority subscribe for the tools (specifically the Character Builder and/or Compendium). Both of these benefit a great deal from having a signficant amount of material in them. (And, whenever a new edition comes out, there's an immediate demand for WotC to "fill in the gaps" - Eberron players 'need' Warforged and Shifters, many people 'need' Psionics, there are monsters that people 'need', and so on.)</p><p></p><p>So it makes sense to put out quite a lot of support material quite quickly - probably the equivalents of PHB2&3, MM2&3, the first round of "* Power", the "Adventurer's Vault", and a few other products. That gets the CB & Comp well-stocked with stuff to the benefit of subscribers, and it fills in the gaps pretty well for people to convert their games.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that once you've done that, you've <em>already</em> saturated the game. Adding more stuff to the tools is almost certainly a matter of sharply diminishing returns - most people who will subscribe for 'stuff' have already subscribed. And all your best-selling books are out and done.</p><p></p><p>And that's you, at most, two years into your release schedule (because (horrors!) people actually <em>want</em> those books).</p><p></p><p>Now, you can start looking into niche subjects (Frostburn, Libris Mortis...), or you can start doing a second round of splats but, alas, these just don't sell all that well. Unless you're willing to accept a dramatically reduced income stream, it's <em>already</em> time to start looking at a new (half-)edition. Not good.</p><p></p><p>(Unfortunately, it was also worse for 4e. As we know, DDI subscriptions canibalised sales of those best-selling books. We don't know by how much, but we do know that a not-insignificant number of people subscribed rather than buying the books. And, frankly, with books like "* Power" that's a no-brainer - the DDI is just a better way to get that content, and would be even if the books were free. But we also weren't, and probably still aren't, at the point where WotC could just drop the print delivery entirely and instead deliver splat material online-only - many people would simply refuse. What this <em>probably</em> meant is that the lost sales due to DDI subs reduced those "best-sellers" to a point where they were barely worth printing, while the DDI itself didn't achieve the (absurd) targets WotC had set for it. Instead of one reasonable success, they had two relative failures on their hands.)</p><p></p><p>It will be interesting to see what WotC do with 5e. My gut feeling is that we won't see a dedicated 5e DDI (we'd have heard about it by now), but that we'll also see very little in-print support for the edition - those 'gaps' will probably remain unfilled. It appears that WotC have decided to focus on D&D as a <em>brand</em>, and with a multi-platform offering, of which the TTRPG is only a tiny (and probably the smallest) part. We're just not worth supporting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed. WotC have produced barely a dozen adventures, ever, that reached the heady heights of "okay".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, agreed. What works for Paizo won't work for WotC, and vice versa.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem with this is that most groups don't use any published setting at all and the vast majority of groups that do use a published setting only use <em>one</em>. This very sharply limits your ability to publish settings - any given setting will saturate if supported indefinitely, but multiple settings compete against one another. In that regard, I think Paizo have been very wise to stick exclusively with Golarion, and WotC are wise to likewise focus heavily on FR, but it does mean that these are rapidly heading to saturation.</p><p></p><p>(There's no reason, of course, that the DDI couldn't be used to support the other TSR settings (or Eberron), or even to introduce an entirely new setting - since subscribers get everything anyway, this gives them the ability to experiment significantly with content. With such a subscription service they don't need to sell customers on each new product; they just need to do enough to avoid them <em>cancelling</em> - a much easier proposal.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 6279137, member: 22424"] True, to a point. While everyone who subscribes has their own reasons to do so, my guess is that the overwhelming majority subscribe for the tools (specifically the Character Builder and/or Compendium). Both of these benefit a great deal from having a signficant amount of material in them. (And, whenever a new edition comes out, there's an immediate demand for WotC to "fill in the gaps" - Eberron players 'need' Warforged and Shifters, many people 'need' Psionics, there are monsters that people 'need', and so on.) So it makes sense to put out quite a lot of support material quite quickly - probably the equivalents of PHB2&3, MM2&3, the first round of "* Power", the "Adventurer's Vault", and a few other products. That gets the CB & Comp well-stocked with stuff to the benefit of subscribers, and it fills in the gaps pretty well for people to convert their games. The problem is that once you've done that, you've [i]already[/i] saturated the game. Adding more stuff to the tools is almost certainly a matter of sharply diminishing returns - most people who will subscribe for 'stuff' have already subscribed. And all your best-selling books are out and done. And that's you, at most, two years into your release schedule (because (horrors!) people actually [i]want[/i] those books). Now, you can start looking into niche subjects (Frostburn, Libris Mortis...), or you can start doing a second round of splats but, alas, these just don't sell all that well. Unless you're willing to accept a dramatically reduced income stream, it's [i]already[/i] time to start looking at a new (half-)edition. Not good. (Unfortunately, it was also worse for 4e. As we know, DDI subscriptions canibalised sales of those best-selling books. We don't know by how much, but we do know that a not-insignificant number of people subscribed rather than buying the books. And, frankly, with books like "* Power" that's a no-brainer - the DDI is just a better way to get that content, and would be even if the books were free. But we also weren't, and probably still aren't, at the point where WotC could just drop the print delivery entirely and instead deliver splat material online-only - many people would simply refuse. What this [i]probably[/i] meant is that the lost sales due to DDI subs reduced those "best-sellers" to a point where they were barely worth printing, while the DDI itself didn't achieve the (absurd) targets WotC had set for it. Instead of one reasonable success, they had two relative failures on their hands.) It will be interesting to see what WotC do with 5e. My gut feeling is that we won't see a dedicated 5e DDI (we'd have heard about it by now), but that we'll also see very little in-print support for the edition - those 'gaps' will probably remain unfilled. It appears that WotC have decided to focus on D&D as a [i]brand[/i], and with a multi-platform offering, of which the TTRPG is only a tiny (and probably the smallest) part. We're just not worth supporting. Indeed. WotC have produced barely a dozen adventures, ever, that reached the heady heights of "okay". Again, agreed. What works for Paizo won't work for WotC, and vice versa. The problem with this is that most groups don't use any published setting at all and the vast majority of groups that do use a published setting only use [i]one[/i]. This very sharply limits your ability to publish settings - any given setting will saturate if supported indefinitely, but multiple settings compete against one another. In that regard, I think Paizo have been very wise to stick exclusively with Golarion, and WotC are wise to likewise focus heavily on FR, but it does mean that these are rapidly heading to saturation. (There's no reason, of course, that the DDI couldn't be used to support the other TSR settings (or Eberron), or even to introduce an entirely new setting - since subscribers get everything anyway, this gives them the ability to experiment significantly with content. With such a subscription service they don't need to sell customers on each new product; they just need to do enough to avoid them [i]cancelling[/i] - a much easier proposal.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is long-term support of the game important?
Top