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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 2938257" data-attributes="member: 3929">He is a 20th level character. He had 20 levels of opportunity, and this is what he's produced. He is just as much a 20th level character as the 20th level fighter who didn't take any fighting feats. And neither of them will stand up to a balor. Doesn't mean the rules should make it so that sub-optimal choices should be made par, nor does it mean that the system should be designed such that there are no sub-optimal choices.Just because something can be built badly does not mean that is should be made equal.And if we're arguing apples and oranges, then there's the crux of it. I don't care that an unfocused Wiz/Clr can't fight Balors. If the character's theme was, "do a lot, but nothing powerfully" then he's succeeded. Good for him. Don't fight balors.Almost. That's the spellcasting power you get, but you also lose out on 5 levels of familar power-ups, 5 levels of 2 free spells in spellbook when leveling, 5 levels of undead turning, 5 levels of domain powers, 5 levels of favored fort save, and 5 levels of d8 HD.Might not seem like too much, but it adds up.Yes, you lose things when you multiclass. You gain other things.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4 levels of cleric will net you a losts 4xCha Lay on Hands. -- It will provide 7 spells slots from which to cast all healing spells if you need to. That'll be more than 4xCha.</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4 levels of cleric will delay and weaken your mount. I would recommend that this multiclass not try to be a mounted charger as its strengths lie elsewhere.</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4 levels of cleric will lose you a Smite Evil per day and 4 points of damage. --Bull's Strength will provide a +2/+2 on every attack, not just one, for 4 minutes. Take your pick.</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Turning: quite right. Unless he picks up Cleric levels before 4th Character level. Thus a  "step up".</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spells: Paladin spells at 10th are 1 1st and 1 2nd. A Pal6/Clr4 has 1st (from Pal) 4 1st and 3 2nd (from Clr). And spontaneous healing. If the straight paladin casts those spells himself he won't be able to cast anything more himself.</li> </ul><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Will Save. Because having a +4 to Will saves is a bad thing? As a melee character, that's exactly what he'll be targeted with. I don't think this really qualifies as something you need a "desperate need" for to see a benefit to.</li> </ul>You conceded that Paladin and Cleric multiclass combinations might not be good support for unbalanced multiclass arguments. We agree.In 20-level power curve charts, clearly spellcaster overtake an early lead by martial classes by the mid levels and later extend that lead.Is it possible that the assymmetry you find in the multiclassing rules is balanced by the assymmetry found inherent in the progression of the base classes?Or perhaps, there is a greater reward given to those who maintain their focus on spellcasting instead of dividing it between casting and meleeing?Or perhaps, because martial classes tend to be high on HPs and Fort saves, avoiding an even split Ftr/Wiz who can cast near as well as a straight Wiz means also having to deal with a spellcasting threat who has a much reduced vulnerability when it comes to things casters are usually vulnerable to (HPs and Fort saves)?Current multiclassing rules encourage casters to either dip into casting (which will help, but not overpower, their martial capabilities) or to dip into martial classes (which will help them do whatever it is that class does). It also encourages them to stay single-classed. Focused. Determined. And by doing that, it ensures that those focused characters will all have weaknesses comparable to the power they gain in their higher level spells.And I think that is in all ways a good thing.Maybe it's me who remembers 2e multiclassed characters being more powerful than striaght classed characters, but I really don't think we need to do anything to make a Ftr10/Wiz10 a viable multiclass combination. It's lack of focus, it's attempt to do two divergent playstyles work seamlessly, and the flashbacks to 2e, land of imbalance, clunky rules, and binders of house-rules, render it as satirical as the Ecology of the Adventurer article.It appeared in Complete Arcane. It boosts caster level by 4, with the restraint that your caster level can not be higher than your character level. So a Sor1/Rog4 with that feat will have a caster level of 5, even though he'll have spells per day of a Sor1.Actually, that I don't mind too much. If you want non-casting classes to increase effective casting level by some degree (1/2?) but not increase spells per day, that seems reasonable to me.</blockquote>

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