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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7142979" data-attributes="member: 6799649">I'm struggling to find your logic here.They don't know what is going on because they failed their Perception check, not because they are being punished for having a feat.How is being able to move/act worse than not being able to move/act? The feat makes sure you have the option.Nothing is wasted by being able to act. Acting first, before there is an enemy in view, does not take anything away from you. You would still act in round two the same way, surprised or not.Are you saying that even those PCs who failed to perceive the threat somehow know all about the threat? How? By what mechanism are they aware that there is a wizard around the corner speaking verbal components if they failed the roll to determine if they heard the wizard?It does not make sense that those who fail to perceive the enemy know all about the enemy anyway!First, the Perception roll determines if they perceive the enemy or not. Because of the feat, they will still be able to act/react whether or not they perceive the enemy.Second, initiative is not a 'succeed/fail' type roll. It simply establishes your place in the order.Rubbish! Just because the combat is about to kick off does not mean that all combatants instantly become aware of all hidden enemies whether or not their Perception checks beat the Stealth checks! This is just absurd!</blockquote>