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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7143907" data-attributes="member: 6799649">The Alert guy does know something; he know's that combat is about to start!Meta-game, the player legitimately knows that combat is about to start. In game, the PC gets that tingle, hairs-on-the-back-of-the-neck, "I've got a bad feeling about this!" sense that it's about to kick off. They have the advantage (with a high initiative) to get to take actions that surprised PCs could not or that they could not if they rolled lower initiative. So, yes, it's usually an advantage. Still, going first has never guaranteed to be 'better' than going later in the round. Plenty of friendly-fireballed fighters can testify to that!But even though the Alert guy knows things are about to kick off, if he failed his Perception check then he simply has failed to perceive what the threat actually is, even though he knows there is one.  The correct point to enter initiative is when a hostile action needs to be resolved. If the hidden enemy wizard was about to cast prestidigitation to make his snack taste better then this does not start the combat process. But if the enemy wizard is about to cast a fireball to engulf the party then the process kicks in: DM determines surprise (using whatever method he likes, but in this situation Perception vs. Stealth) and initiative is rolled. It may follow that the Alert guy goes before the wizard gets his fireball off, but his Perception fail means he didn't perceive the wizard.  The Alert guy knows there is danger, but he simply doesn't know about the wizard specifically. Them's the breaks.They are aware that something is wrong, but they failed the check which would give them information based on perceiving the danger itself. Tingle of danger? Yep. From the right? No. They have no mechanism to know the vector of the danger. They failed their roll to hear the spellcasting or see the glint in the darkness. Those are the things that the DM would reveal on a successful Perception check.You're wrong here. There is a need for initiative as soon as the wizard attempts a hostile act, whether or not he is perceived. The whole relationship between surprise and initiative is built on this premise! Both of those are 'unsat'. 'Sat' would be:-DM: I need Perception checks AND Initiative checks from everyone.Bob: I got a 12 Perception and 22 Initiative.DM: You're surprised, and you're first to act. Because you're surprised you cannot move or act this turn.Bob: Wait, I have the Alert feat so I'm immune to surprise.DM: Okay, you can move/act; what do you do?Bob: About what? I failed my Perception check so I don't know about the enemy.DM: True, but you do know it's about to kick off big-style! You sense danger, you get a very bad feeling about this! Based on that uncanny gut instinct, what do you do? Stand around and look gormless just like the poor saps who are surprised and can't do anything?Bob: No! I move behind the paladin, draw my bow and Ready an action to shoot the first enemy I see!DM: Better then being surprised, eh?</blockquote>

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