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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7150220" data-attributes="member: 6799649">You said that DMs who rule that PCs who fail to notice the threat (failed Perception versus Stealth) do not know about the enemy are 'screwing the players'. I'm taking 'screwing the players' as meaning the same as 'being unfair'.The creatures are trying to be as unfair as possible. The DM's duties include being fair. These are not mutually exclusive.The DM is being fair when he adjudicates what is happening in a consistent and realistic manner. The bad guys hide in order to gain an 'unfair' advantage, but the DM is not being 'unfair' when he decides that the bad guys try to hide. The DM just has to adjudicate the consequences fairly and realistically.If the PCs fail to notice the ambush via Perception, then they have failed to perceive the bad guys! This is a 'fair' adjudication by the DM.It is an absurd notion for the DM to say to the players that they have failed to perceive the enemy, but tell them which rocks they are hiding behind anyway! In such a way that the PCs can act on this information that their failed checks already determined that they do not have!By what mechanism do the players know anything about that? Simply being 'immune to surprise' is not the same thing as 'always succeeds in Perception rolls made to determine surprise'.</blockquote>