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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7150229" data-attributes="member: 6799649">They are not the same answer because they are not the same situation.  What causes initiative is not 'thinking about attacking' but 'taking hostile action'. The game system then determines whether or not anyone could notice that this 'threat' exists, and may even allow their 'retaliation' to interrupt that 'initial' hostile action, given both noticing the threat and having faster reactions.  No, the initiative was not caused by the wizard intending to attack, but by the wizard actually attacking! The rules just allow the possibility that he is noticed as a threat and is beaten to the punch by a faster reacting enemy.The wizard already said he was attacking. That attempt to attack, successful or not, completed or not, is what triggered the combat. The wizard doesn't get to change his mind about attempting to attack because it was that attempt that started the combat. That attempt has already had a real affect in the world; it already began. The wizard cannot then pretend that he didn't begin the attacking process.  Yes, but the reason is that there is no encounter at all when the enemy are three miles away! In contrast, the wizard hiding around the corner can be perceived, is taking hostile action, therefore this encounter has already begun.There are no 'gymnastics' and no 'forcing of blind actions'. The PCs do not get to know about the ambushers because they simply have failed to perceive them. That's obvious. That's not twisting anything.They are not 'forced' to take their allowed actions, but being able to take actions is better than not being able to take actions. They haven't perceived the enemy yet, so it's their failure to perceive them that is causing them to act 'blindly', not some secret player-screwing DM agenda.</blockquote>

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