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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7152758" data-attributes="member: 6799649">In 5E combat, there is no such thing as a 'surprise check'.Let me say that again, just to drum it home: in 5E, there is no such thing as a 'surprise check'!What there is is 'The DM determines who is be surprised'.He can just say, "Those guys are surprised, these guys are not" and this is perfectly fine and RAW.However, he may (and frequently does) ask for opposed ability checks to determine whether or not those creatures who might be surprised actually are or are not surprised.He may choose any pair of opposing ability checks that make sense. Usually, for murderhobos adventurers, then since any creature they see while exploring is assumed to be hostile then simply noticing the presence of a creature is the same as noticing a threat, so Perception/Stealth are the skills he chooses.For normal people, and sometimes even for our heroes, it is not the case that everyone you see is assumed to be hostile and needs murdering bringing to justice. Imagine trying to go shopping with that attitude! So, in more generally peaceful surroundings, merely noticing the presence of a creature (via Perception/Stealth) is not the same as noticing a threat. But if things in the shoe shop do take a turn for the worse (what do you mean, "they make me look fat"?) then someone who's non-hostile presence you've been completely aware of suddenly pulls a knife and attacks. In this case, Perception/Stealth are not appropriate because their presence, without being a threat, was already known. What was not known is the threat that he is now! Noticing that is better modelled by Insight (body language-he seems to be getting really angry and is he going for a knife?) versus Deception (trying to hide his violent intent until it's too late to react).But the point of all this is that, whatever check the DM chooses, it is not a 'surprise check'; it is a Perception check or an Insight check or whatever.Whatever check it is does not directly determine surprise! The check determines if you 'noticed the threat' BECAUSE you saw/heard/smelt a creature or saw/intuited suspect behaviour (as a result of a successful check).The check itself does not directly determine surprise. The check determines what exactly you noticed that made you realise that there is a threat.So if the DM used Perception, then a successful check does not directly mean you are not surprised. A successful check means that you perceived something, and that something made you realise that there is a threat. It also means that if you failed the check it means that you failed to gain the information that a successful check would have given you, and the lack of that information means that you failed to notice any threat.The assertion that 'to not be surprised you have to notice a threat' is not true. What is true is that 'noticing a threat' does mean that you are not surprised, but there are also other ways to not be surprised!Like....the Alert feat. Weapons of Warning. Any other thing that makes you immune to surprise means that you are not surprised, even though you did not 'notice a threat'.None of these things work by making you auto-succeed in your attempt to notice the threat. They work by making you 'not surprised' whether you noticed the threat or not!</blockquote>

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