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Is my DM being fair?
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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7415218" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion based on what I wrote. This wouldn't be an outcome because that's, in part, what passive checks are for - resolving uncertain outcomes for tasks that are performed <em>repeatedly</em>. So, while traveling the dungeon, you're Keeping Watch for danger or whatever. Your passive Perception score applies whenever the DM determines surprise. If you're not Keeping Watch, then it doesn't apply and you're surprised if a monster is acting stealthily.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"When a combat starts, <strong>every participant</strong> makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order." Emphasis mine. <em>By definition</em>, when Initiative is rolled, everyone knows they're in a combat. The participants may or may not be surprised as determined by the DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>An enemy who is hiding is not necessarily in combat. The Hide action is something you can do in combat, given certain conditions, but a creature can also hide outside of combat by simply being unseen and unheard. Regardless, the scenario you're describing is covered by the rules for determining surprise. The invisible creature you mention meets the definition of one or both sides of the combat trying to be stealthy. So, the DM rolls a Dexterity (Stealth) check for the creature and, if that result is higher than a PC's passive Perception score (provided the PC was Keeping Watch and is in the position to notice the creature), then the PC is surprised unless he or she has the Alert feat or some other feature that negates surprise. Even if the surprised PC beats the invisible creature in initiative, the surprised PC does not get to take action before the invisible creature does, except for a reaction after the surprised PC's turn is passed.</p><p></p><p>If that's not an ambush, I don't know what is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say that the main misuse of passive Perception is treating it like it applies to resolving the outcome of all Perception-based tasks simultaneously. When taking the rules as a whole into account, it's clear to me that a player has to choose a single task and can't perform additional things that distract from that task. That immediately deals with objections to passive Perception being too powerful in my experience without making feats like Observant useless. It means you'll be good at whatever task you focus on, but not all Perception-related tasks at the same time. Only a ranger in favored terrain would be able to both Keep Watch and, say, search for secret doors simultaneously.</p><p></p><p>As for "giving away the game," I lay out the common tasks appropriate to the adventure location and the respective DCs when those outcomes are uncertain. The players can then establish their characters's tasks according to their strengths, weaknesses, and priorities. They can therefore decide that, for example, finding traps is really important to them, so they put their highest passive Perception character in the Front Rank (which might expose that character to greater risk). If the DC for finding secret doors at a slow pace is set to 15, they can put a PC with a passive Perception score of 10 in that task and have another PC work together with him or her to make it 15. Those characters will always be surprised, but they'll always find secret doors if they come across them - that's the risk they take for success. And so on. I then resolve outcomes as normal.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7415218, member: 97077"] I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion based on what I wrote. This wouldn't be an outcome because that's, in part, what passive checks are for - resolving uncertain outcomes for tasks that are performed [I]repeatedly[/I]. So, while traveling the dungeon, you're Keeping Watch for danger or whatever. Your passive Perception score applies whenever the DM determines surprise. If you're not Keeping Watch, then it doesn't apply and you're surprised if a monster is acting stealthily. "When a combat starts, [B]every participant[/B] makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order." Emphasis mine. [I]By definition[/I], when Initiative is rolled, everyone knows they're in a combat. The participants may or may not be surprised as determined by the DM. An enemy who is hiding is not necessarily in combat. The Hide action is something you can do in combat, given certain conditions, but a creature can also hide outside of combat by simply being unseen and unheard. Regardless, the scenario you're describing is covered by the rules for determining surprise. The invisible creature you mention meets the definition of one or both sides of the combat trying to be stealthy. So, the DM rolls a Dexterity (Stealth) check for the creature and, if that result is higher than a PC's passive Perception score (provided the PC was Keeping Watch and is in the position to notice the creature), then the PC is surprised unless he or she has the Alert feat or some other feature that negates surprise. Even if the surprised PC beats the invisible creature in initiative, the surprised PC does not get to take action before the invisible creature does, except for a reaction after the surprised PC's turn is passed. If that's not an ambush, I don't know what is. I would say that the main misuse of passive Perception is treating it like it applies to resolving the outcome of all Perception-based tasks simultaneously. When taking the rules as a whole into account, it's clear to me that a player has to choose a single task and can't perform additional things that distract from that task. That immediately deals with objections to passive Perception being too powerful in my experience without making feats like Observant useless. It means you'll be good at whatever task you focus on, but not all Perception-related tasks at the same time. Only a ranger in favored terrain would be able to both Keep Watch and, say, search for secret doors simultaneously. As for "giving away the game," I lay out the common tasks appropriate to the adventure location and the respective DCs when those outcomes are uncertain. The players can then establish their characters's tasks according to their strengths, weaknesses, and priorities. They can therefore decide that, for example, finding traps is really important to them, so they put their highest passive Perception character in the Front Rank (which might expose that character to greater risk). If the DC for finding secret doors at a slow pace is set to 15, they can put a PC with a passive Perception score of 10 in that task and have another PC work together with him or her to make it 15. Those characters will always be surprised, but they'll always find secret doors if they come across them - that's the risk they take for success. And so on. I then resolve outcomes as normal. [/QUOTE]
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