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Is my DM being fair?
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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7415255" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>The way you are running things is what creates the problems you are having, and your solutions are making things worse.</p><p></p><p>Compare:-</p><p></p><p>* the situation is that an ogre is hiding behind a rock in order to ambush the party, because they were being loud and he heard them. The DM determines that the ogre is not surprised, but the party might be. The ogre hides (this is not an Action In Combat because combat hasn't started yet, he just, y'know, 'hides') and the DM rolls a Stealth check. When the party move into that room the DM can compare the passive scores of the PCs to the result of the ogre's Stealth check. What happens if the PCs fail? The DM describes the room and what they can see, but doesn't mention the ogre. What happens if a PC succeeds? The DM informs them that they notice an ogre trying to hide behind a rock holding a massive club, as well as the other things that everybody can see. Noticing the ogre does not tell you anything about the ogre beyond what you see. If the ogre were wearing a Hat of Disguise and looked like a tall human, then the successful PCs would notice a tall human, <strong>not</strong> "an ogre wearing a Hat of Disguise pretending to be a tall human"!</p><p></p><p>* the situation is that a Rug of Smothering is on the floor pretending to be a normal rug, but otherwise is in the same boat as the ogre. When the party come into view, any who make their Perception roll notice a rug. They do not notice a Rug of Smothering, because merely seeing something just tells you its appearance, not its game stats or magic potential</p><p></p><p>So a successful Perception because of ungodly numbers does not spoil the Rug's M.O. The Rug is in plain sight, so 'noticing' it is neither here nor there. 'Noticing it as a <em>threat</em>' requires more than just seeing it!</p><p></p><p>But what if the PC has the Alert feat or a Weapon of Warning and is Immune to Surprise? He'll be able to tell it's a Rug of Smothering and avoid the ambush. No fair!</p><p></p><p>Rubbish! Being Immune to Surprise does <strong>not</strong> grant the ability to see through illusions or grant Truesight or whatever. It just does exactly what it says on the tin, which is it does not suffer the <em>game effects</em> of surprise, which means that they CAN take reactions before their first turn and CAN act normally on their first turn!</p><p></p><p>That's it! No 'Auto-Detect Rugs of Naughtiness'!</p><p></p><p>The alert PC who succeeds with his Perception sees a rug. He also sees the rest of the furniture. What does he do? Unless he has some special means of detecting the disguised rug, unless he suddenly decides to closely Investigate the rug for some reason, he will probably move forward over the rug (because of course the rug placed itself in a spot which must be crossed to enter the room).</p><p></p><p>So the ambush proceeds. Initiative is rolled. Even though the PC is 'not surprised' (feat/item/ability) combat ensues normally.</p><p></p><p>No, the rug (nor anything else in the game) gets to attack <em>before combat begins!</em> Why? Because the rules say so. The rules state that combat takes place in Combat Rounds, therefore if it's combat then it takes place in the Combat Round in Initiative order.</p><p></p><p>No, you cannot Ready Actions In Combat when you are not in combat! You cannot be in combat without being in Initiative order in Combat Rounds!</p><p></p><p>If the rug wins initiative then the advantage of being Immune to Surprise is that you can take reactions. When the rug tries to engulf you, you may very well have a reaction that might help. If you don't, tough.</p><p></p><p>If you go before the rug and are Immune to Surprise but failed your Perception then you 'get a bad feeling about this!' and know that combat is about to start but you don't know why. You can act, and what you choose to do may or may not help against the rug.</p><p></p><p>If you made the Perception check then the DM may tell you that this 'rug' is quivering. Not normal for a rug. What are you going to do? "I put my head <em>really</em> close to the rug in order to get a better look". As you roll up your next character you may pause to reflect that being Alert for danger still requires you to do sensible things in response!</p><p></p><p>If you decide not to run combat as the 5e rules say, and have 'pre-combat' combat(!), then you are needlessly nerfing the very abilities that are meant to be proof against it. "Oh, so the PCs are Immune to Surprise? In that case I'll have the bad guys attack them <em>before combat starts(!)</em> and this will get around their Immunity to Surprise!" You mean, you cheat. Shame on you.</p><p></p><p>If you change the rules so that creatures CAN Ready outside combat, then what will happen is that outside combat every player will tell you the Ready an action every six seconds of every day, resulting in every encounter being between two sets of foes who ALL have Readied actions. So who's Readied action goes first?</p><p></p><p>Errrm....roll Initiative? <em>Then just play by the rules!</em> Everybody is on the lookout for danger! This does not mean that you automatically react in time to avoid it or detect every danger! Every ambusher intends his ambush to be foolproof! This does not mean that every ambush is automatically successful!</p><p></p><p>That's why the rules are as they are! They determine, by checks and initiative and Actions In Combat who goes when. Follow those rules correctly and it all plays out as it should. Not every ambush is successful, not every player who says his PC is 'looking out for danger' automatically spots it in time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7415255, member: 6799649"] The way you are running things is what creates the problems you are having, and your solutions are making things worse. Compare:- * the situation is that an ogre is hiding behind a rock in order to ambush the party, because they were being loud and he heard them. The DM determines that the ogre is not surprised, but the party might be. The ogre hides (this is not an Action In Combat because combat hasn't started yet, he just, y'know, 'hides') and the DM rolls a Stealth check. When the party move into that room the DM can compare the passive scores of the PCs to the result of the ogre's Stealth check. What happens if the PCs fail? The DM describes the room and what they can see, but doesn't mention the ogre. What happens if a PC succeeds? The DM informs them that they notice an ogre trying to hide behind a rock holding a massive club, as well as the other things that everybody can see. Noticing the ogre does not tell you anything about the ogre beyond what you see. If the ogre were wearing a Hat of Disguise and looked like a tall human, then the successful PCs would notice a tall human, [b]not[/b] "an ogre wearing a Hat of Disguise pretending to be a tall human"! * the situation is that a Rug of Smothering is on the floor pretending to be a normal rug, but otherwise is in the same boat as the ogre. When the party come into view, any who make their Perception roll notice a rug. They do not notice a Rug of Smothering, because merely seeing something just tells you its appearance, not its game stats or magic potential So a successful Perception because of ungodly numbers does not spoil the Rug's M.O. The Rug is in plain sight, so 'noticing' it is neither here nor there. 'Noticing it as a [i]threat[/i]' requires more than just seeing it! But what if the PC has the Alert feat or a Weapon of Warning and is Immune to Surprise? He'll be able to tell it's a Rug of Smothering and avoid the ambush. No fair! Rubbish! Being Immune to Surprise does [b]not[/b] grant the ability to see through illusions or grant Truesight or whatever. It just does exactly what it says on the tin, which is it does not suffer the [i]game effects[/i] of surprise, which means that they CAN take reactions before their first turn and CAN act normally on their first turn! That's it! No 'Auto-Detect Rugs of Naughtiness'! The alert PC who succeeds with his Perception sees a rug. He also sees the rest of the furniture. What does he do? Unless he has some special means of detecting the disguised rug, unless he suddenly decides to closely Investigate the rug for some reason, he will probably move forward over the rug (because of course the rug placed itself in a spot which must be crossed to enter the room). So the ambush proceeds. Initiative is rolled. Even though the PC is 'not surprised' (feat/item/ability) combat ensues normally. No, the rug (nor anything else in the game) gets to attack [i]before combat begins![/i] Why? Because the rules say so. The rules state that combat takes place in Combat Rounds, therefore if it's combat then it takes place in the Combat Round in Initiative order. No, you cannot Ready Actions In Combat when you are not in combat! You cannot be in combat without being in Initiative order in Combat Rounds! If the rug wins initiative then the advantage of being Immune to Surprise is that you can take reactions. When the rug tries to engulf you, you may very well have a reaction that might help. If you don't, tough. If you go before the rug and are Immune to Surprise but failed your Perception then you 'get a bad feeling about this!' and know that combat is about to start but you don't know why. You can act, and what you choose to do may or may not help against the rug. If you made the Perception check then the DM may tell you that this 'rug' is quivering. Not normal for a rug. What are you going to do? "I put my head [i]really[/i] close to the rug in order to get a better look". As you roll up your next character you may pause to reflect that being Alert for danger still requires you to do sensible things in response! If you decide not to run combat as the 5e rules say, and have 'pre-combat' combat(!), then you are needlessly nerfing the very abilities that are meant to be proof against it. "Oh, so the PCs are Immune to Surprise? In that case I'll have the bad guys attack them [i]before combat starts(!)[/i] and this will get around their Immunity to Surprise!" You mean, you cheat. Shame on you. If you change the rules so that creatures CAN Ready outside combat, then what will happen is that outside combat every player will tell you the Ready an action every six seconds of every day, resulting in every encounter being between two sets of foes who ALL have Readied actions. So who's Readied action goes first? Errrm....roll Initiative? [i]Then just play by the rules![/i] Everybody is on the lookout for danger! This does not mean that you automatically react in time to avoid it or detect every danger! Every ambusher intends his ambush to be foolproof! This does not mean that every ambush is automatically successful! That's why the rules are as they are! They determine, by checks and initiative and Actions In Combat who goes when. Follow those rules correctly and it all plays out as it should. Not every ambush is successful, not every player who says his PC is 'looking out for danger' automatically spots it in time. [/QUOTE]
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