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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 7895292" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>That poster betrays a lot of 4e-style encounter building experience.</p><p></p><p>And the thing is, 4e style encounter building is <strong>solid</strong> and <strong>reliable</strong> and pretty damn easy for a DM. But it does lead to a certain kind of encounters and monsters.</p><p></p><p>In a sense, 4e is <strong>encounter first</strong> design. You start with "I need an encounter for 5 level X PCs". From that you derive <strong>how strong the monsters</strong> should be. You could adjust the encounter afterwards, but monsters are built to serve encounters.</p><p></p><p>5e is monster-first design. You build a monster based on what you think the monster should do. Then you work out how that monster could fit in an encounter.</p><p></p><p>Now part of the problem is that 5e's "monster -> encounter" math is <strong>needlessly complex</strong>. I tore it apart (see spoilers), and you can actually assign each 5e monster a point value, add up said points, and compare it to the PCs encounter budget. No multipliers based on monster count needed, at all.</p><p></p><p>[spoiler]First, monster XP based on DMG chart is basically DPR * HP * (1 + AC adjustment + ATK adjustment) * 5.</p><p></p><p>Second, encounter building is linear in sum (monster XP)^(2/3).</p><p></p><p>This means if you double both the HP and Damage of a monster, it is worth 2^2 = 4x the XP and 2^1.5 the encounter budget. If you take two monsters, it is worth 2x the encounter budget.</p><p></p><p>That power factor -- 1.5 -- is (a) a decent approximation to triangular numbers, (b) apparently comes from military power-scale theory, (c) reflects that two monsters with half the HP and Damage are actually weaker than one beefy one, because AOE spells are a thing, and if you deal half the HP to the smaller monsters (well focused) you also half the DPR, but doing the same to the big monster doesn't work.</p><p></p><p>The third important insight is that, as 5e D&D is HP/damage balanced, and HP/damage grows reasonably linearly, that the change in player power per level as a ration compared to the previous level flattens out. Level 1 to 3 is rough a doubling of power, then level 3 to 5 is another, then 5 to 9, then 9 to 17; that is rough (but based on the DMG XP budgets after linearizing them).</p><p></p><p>At low levels, the exact mix of monsters you face is highly important. Throw a CR 5 monster at a level 1 party and they have a decent chance of going splat. Throw a CR 15 monster at a level 11 party and they might not notice it is tough.</p><p></p><p>This all means that one reason why low level D&D is <strong>deadly</strong> is because it is highly sensitive to encounter building, and 5e encounter building tools are very rough and hard to use.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, at higher levels, building encounters is easy! You can just guesstimate it. Off by a few CR? Who cares! Throw a CR 17 demilich against a level 10 party? Quite doable! Throw a CR 8 monster against a level 1 party? Doomed.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>His approach also presumed a 4e style power curve. His "level windows" for a tier are <strong>way too small</strong> at high levels.</p><p></p><p>These ranges offer a roughly x2 power range:</p><p>1-3: Apprentice</p><p>3-5: Veteran</p><p>5-9: Hero</p><p>9-17: Champion</p><p>17+: Legend</p><p></p><p>You'll notice that I overlapped each region by 1 level. Maybe a bad idea. Let's change it so there is no overlap, and maintain the roughly 2x power ratio from the first level to the last in each range:</p><p></p><p>1-2: Apprentice</p><p>3-5: Veteran</p><p>6-11: Hero</p><p>12-17: Champion</p><p>18+: Legend</p><p></p><p>Then we'll build for a party of 4 PCs at the mid point of each.</p><p></p><p>Apprentice: 8-12 EBP, average 10 (note: lack of double from min to max, small tier)</p><p>Veteran: 16-32 EBP, average 24 (note: doubles from min to max)</p><p>Hero: 40-80 EBP, average 60 (note: doubles from min to max)</p><p>Champion: 88-140, average 104 (note: lack of double), would be 150 if we follow pattern</p><p>Legend: 152++, "average" 224 (or way more; would be 375 if we follow pattern)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll follow the pattern of 2.5x EBP per tier.</p><p></p><p>The linear encounter building then looks like:</p><p></p><p>CR 1/8: 1 EBP (1/6 of a CR 1)</p><p>CR 1/4: 2 EBP (1/3 of a CR 1)</p><p>CR 1/2: 4 EBP (2/3 of a CR 1)</p><p>CR 1: 6 EBP</p><p>CR 2: 9 EBP</p><p>CR 3: 12 EBP (twice CR 1)</p><p>CR 4: 18 EBP (6 per CR up to CR 16)</p><p>CR 5: 24 EBP</p><p>CR 6: 30 EBP (5 x CR 1)</p><p>CR 7: 36 EBP</p><p>CR 8: 42 EBP</p><p>CR 9: 48 EBP</p><p>CR 10: 54 EBP</p><p>CR 11: 60 EBP (10 x CR 1)</p><p>CR 12: 66 EBP</p><p>CR 13: 72 EBP</p><p>CR 14: 78 EBP</p><p>CR 15: 84 EBP</p><p>CR 16: 90 EBP (15 x CR 1)</p><p>CR 17: 100 EBP</p><p>CR 18: 110 EBP</p><p>CR 19: 120 EBP (20 x CR 1)</p><p>CR 20: 140 EBP</p><p>CR 21+: +30 EBP/CR</p><p>CR 30: 450 EBP (75 x CR 1)</p><p></p><p>Note that 1 EBP is 1 guard, or 1 trained soldier. A CR 30 monster is roughly equivalent in power to an army of 450 troops.</p><p></p><p>40% of PC budget is easy, 60% is typical, 80% is hard, 100% is deadly.</p><p></p><p>Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly/OMG encounters:</p><p></p><p>Apprentice: 4/<strong>6</strong>/8/10/12</p><p>Veteran: 10/<strong>15</strong>/20/25/30</p><p>Hero: 24/<strong>36</strong>/48/60/72</p><p>Champion: 60/<strong>90</strong>/120/150/180</p><p>Legend: 150/<strong>225</strong>/300/375/450</p><p></p><p>Notice that Deadly in one tier lines up with Easy in the next.</p><p></p><p>Simply add up the EBP of each monster based off its CR, and compare the sum to the tier's budget. There is no need for "XP multipliers" here.</p><p></p><p>We can also reverse engineer "on the fly" monster stats from the above XP/EBP math.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 7895292, member: 72555"] That poster betrays a lot of 4e-style encounter building experience. And the thing is, 4e style encounter building is [B]solid[/B] and [B]reliable[/B] and pretty damn easy for a DM. But it does lead to a certain kind of encounters and monsters. In a sense, 4e is [B]encounter first[/B] design. You start with "I need an encounter for 5 level X PCs". From that you derive [B]how strong the monsters[/B] should be. You could adjust the encounter afterwards, but monsters are built to serve encounters. 5e is monster-first design. You build a monster based on what you think the monster should do. Then you work out how that monster could fit in an encounter. Now part of the problem is that 5e's "monster -> encounter" math is [B]needlessly complex[/B]. I tore it apart (see spoilers), and you can actually assign each 5e monster a point value, add up said points, and compare it to the PCs encounter budget. No multipliers based on monster count needed, at all. [spoiler]First, monster XP based on DMG chart is basically DPR * HP * (1 + AC adjustment + ATK adjustment) * 5. Second, encounter building is linear in sum (monster XP)^(2/3). This means if you double both the HP and Damage of a monster, it is worth 2^2 = 4x the XP and 2^1.5 the encounter budget. If you take two monsters, it is worth 2x the encounter budget. That power factor -- 1.5 -- is (a) a decent approximation to triangular numbers, (b) apparently comes from military power-scale theory, (c) reflects that two monsters with half the HP and Damage are actually weaker than one beefy one, because AOE spells are a thing, and if you deal half the HP to the smaller monsters (well focused) you also half the DPR, but doing the same to the big monster doesn't work. The third important insight is that, as 5e D&D is HP/damage balanced, and HP/damage grows reasonably linearly, that the change in player power per level as a ration compared to the previous level flattens out. Level 1 to 3 is rough a doubling of power, then level 3 to 5 is another, then 5 to 9, then 9 to 17; that is rough (but based on the DMG XP budgets after linearizing them). At low levels, the exact mix of monsters you face is highly important. Throw a CR 5 monster at a level 1 party and they have a decent chance of going splat. Throw a CR 15 monster at a level 11 party and they might not notice it is tough. This all means that one reason why low level D&D is [B]deadly[/B] is because it is highly sensitive to encounter building, and 5e encounter building tools are very rough and hard to use. Meanwhile, at higher levels, building encounters is easy! You can just guesstimate it. Off by a few CR? Who cares! Throw a CR 17 demilich against a level 10 party? Quite doable! Throw a CR 8 monster against a level 1 party? Doomed. [/spoiler] His approach also presumed a 4e style power curve. His "level windows" for a tier are [B]way too small[/B] at high levels. These ranges offer a roughly x2 power range: 1-3: Apprentice 3-5: Veteran 5-9: Hero 9-17: Champion 17+: Legend You'll notice that I overlapped each region by 1 level. Maybe a bad idea. Let's change it so there is no overlap, and maintain the roughly 2x power ratio from the first level to the last in each range: 1-2: Apprentice 3-5: Veteran 6-11: Hero 12-17: Champion 18+: Legend Then we'll build for a party of 4 PCs at the mid point of each. Apprentice: 8-12 EBP, average 10 (note: lack of double from min to max, small tier) Veteran: 16-32 EBP, average 24 (note: doubles from min to max) Hero: 40-80 EBP, average 60 (note: doubles from min to max) Champion: 88-140, average 104 (note: lack of double), would be 150 if we follow pattern Legend: 152++, "average" 224 (or way more; would be 375 if we follow pattern) I'll follow the pattern of 2.5x EBP per tier. The linear encounter building then looks like: CR 1/8: 1 EBP (1/6 of a CR 1) CR 1/4: 2 EBP (1/3 of a CR 1) CR 1/2: 4 EBP (2/3 of a CR 1) CR 1: 6 EBP CR 2: 9 EBP CR 3: 12 EBP (twice CR 1) CR 4: 18 EBP (6 per CR up to CR 16) CR 5: 24 EBP CR 6: 30 EBP (5 x CR 1) CR 7: 36 EBP CR 8: 42 EBP CR 9: 48 EBP CR 10: 54 EBP CR 11: 60 EBP (10 x CR 1) CR 12: 66 EBP CR 13: 72 EBP CR 14: 78 EBP CR 15: 84 EBP CR 16: 90 EBP (15 x CR 1) CR 17: 100 EBP CR 18: 110 EBP CR 19: 120 EBP (20 x CR 1) CR 20: 140 EBP CR 21+: +30 EBP/CR CR 30: 450 EBP (75 x CR 1) Note that 1 EBP is 1 guard, or 1 trained soldier. A CR 30 monster is roughly equivalent in power to an army of 450 troops. 40% of PC budget is easy, 60% is typical, 80% is hard, 100% is deadly. Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly/OMG encounters: Apprentice: 4/[B]6[/B]/8/10/12 Veteran: 10/[B]15[/B]/20/25/30 Hero: 24/[B]36[/B]/48/60/72 Champion: 60/[B]90[/B]/120/150/180 Legend: 150/[B]225[/B]/300/375/450 Notice that Deadly in one tier lines up with Easy in the next. Simply add up the EBP of each monster based off its CR, and compare the sum to the tier's budget. There is no need for "XP multipliers" here. We can also reverse engineer "on the fly" monster stats from the above XP/EBP math. [/QUOTE]
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