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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2700902" data-attributes="member: 2011">First, I have to say that neither system is good in my opinion. There are just too many variables involved.I personally like Spell Level + Caster Level - 1 introduced in the Artificer's Handbook by Mystic Eye Games for magic item creation. This gets a slightly different ratio higher than&nbsp; the other two systems which I find very nice for magic item creation costs (especially since it takes into account caster level). But, it is still not that great for power levels of individual spells.[code]Lvl SL SP SLCL-1&nbsp;1&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp;2&nbsp; 2&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp;3&nbsp; 3&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp;4&nbsp; 4&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp;5&nbsp; 5&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp;6&nbsp; 6&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; 16&nbsp;7&nbsp; 7&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; 19&nbsp;8&nbsp; 8&nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; 22&nbsp;9&nbsp; 9&nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; 25[/code]Getting back to Polymorph versus Shapechange, I would say more like 5 to 1 or even greater. 2.25? 2.48? 2.5? None of these really matter. None of them come close to how much more powerful Shapechange is to Polymorph across the board.But, Veril put in Spell Level * Caster Level which I think is somewhat interesting except for one thing. At high level, you never cast all of your spells in a given day. You often cast most of your high level spells in a given day. So, I think his ratios are off. I suspect that many 18th level casters are very close in power level to many 17th level casters and many 19th level casters. Not 15% to 20% better from one level to the next. You just don't have any additional rounds to cast in (shy of Time Stop or Quicken). Kind of like the old saying, even the King puts his pants on one leg at a time.So for power levels, I like a simple Spell Level + Caster Level for the top 10 highest level spells. That to me is sufficient to dictate who is really the most powerful and by what ratio. The lower level spells although nice, are mostly white noise.Part of the reason this works ok is that hit points are still linear, regardless of how powerful of spells you get. A dozen 5th level casters casting Magic Missile can still take out a 20th level Wizard in round one if many of them win initiative and he has no protection up against it before combat. Veril's chart indicates that the 20th level Wizard is worth 72 such 5th level casters. Well, maybe he sometimes is. And, maybe not.I think Veril's ratio is too high. I don't think that the Sorcerer more than triples in power from level 3 to level 4 and doubles in power from level 5 to level 6. These ratios seem extreme. I do not think a caster ever doubles in power from one level to the next, even first level to second level.Spell level of the 10 highest level spells (making 0th level spells worth 0.5) + caster level yields (ignoring bonus spells which yields very little difference except at low level):[code]Level&nbsp; &nbsp; Cleric&nbsp; &nbsp; Wizard&nbsp; &nbsp; Mystic Thurge&nbsp; &nbsp; Sorcerer1&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6.52&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 93&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10.54&nbsp; &nbsp; 15.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 13.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16.55&nbsp; &nbsp; 21.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 196&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 17.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 277&nbsp; &nbsp; 33&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 318&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 33&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 399&nbsp; &nbsp; 44&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 34&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4310&nbsp; &nbsp; 50&nbsp; &nbsp; 45&nbsp; &nbsp; 41&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5111&nbsp; &nbsp; 57&nbsp; &nbsp; 51&nbsp; &nbsp; 46&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5512&nbsp; &nbsp; 60&nbsp; &nbsp; 57&nbsp; &nbsp; 53&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6313&nbsp; &nbsp; 68&nbsp; &nbsp; 63&nbsp; &nbsp; 58&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6714&nbsp; &nbsp; 74&nbsp; &nbsp; 69&nbsp; &nbsp; 65&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7515&nbsp; &nbsp; 81&nbsp; &nbsp; 75&nbsp; &nbsp; 70&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7916&nbsp; &nbsp; 84&nbsp; &nbsp; 81&nbsp; &nbsp; 76&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8717&nbsp; &nbsp; 92&nbsp; &nbsp; 87&nbsp; &nbsp; 81&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9118&nbsp; &nbsp; 98&nbsp; &nbsp; 93&nbsp; &nbsp; 86&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9919&nbsp; &nbsp; 101&nbsp; &nbsp; 98&nbsp; &nbsp; 90&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10320&nbsp; &nbsp; 105&nbsp; &nbsp; 102&nbsp; &nbsp; 97&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 106[/code]Granted, this could be off as well.But, what I find interesting is that the Cleric and Sorcerer appear balanced with this. I suspect that the Specialized Wizard would appear balanced with those two as well, although slightly more powerful at higher level.The Wizard who is behind the Cleric and Sorcerer starts catching up at higher levels.But, the MT doesn't catch up. Note: I started the MT off as a Cleric and ended him as a Cleric.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 2700902, member: 2011"] First, I have to say that neither system is good in my opinion. There are just too many variables involved. I personally like Spell Level + Caster Level - 1 introduced in the Artificer's Handbook by Mystic Eye Games for magic item creation. This gets a slightly different ratio higher than the other two systems which I find very nice for magic item creation costs (especially since it takes into account caster level). But, it is still not that great for power levels of individual spells. [code] Lvl SL SP SLCL-1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 3 3 5 7 4 4 7 10 5 5 9 13 6 6 11 16 7 7 13 19 8 8 15 22 9 9 17 25 [/code] Getting back to Polymorph versus Shapechange, I would say more like 5 to 1 or even greater. 2.25? 2.48? 2.5? None of these really matter. None of them come close to how much more powerful Shapechange is to Polymorph across the board. But, Veril put in Spell Level * Caster Level which I think is somewhat interesting except for one thing. At high level, you never cast all of your spells in a given day. You often cast most of your high level spells in a given day. So, I think his ratios are off. I suspect that many 18th level casters are very close in power level to many 17th level casters and many 19th level casters. Not 15% to 20% better from one level to the next. You just don't have any additional rounds to cast in (shy of Time Stop or Quicken). Kind of like the old saying, even the King puts his pants on one leg at a time. So for power levels, I like a simple Spell Level + Caster Level for the top 10 highest level spells. That to me is sufficient to dictate who is really the most powerful and by what ratio. The lower level spells although nice, are mostly white noise. Part of the reason this works ok is that hit points are still linear, regardless of how powerful of spells you get. A dozen 5th level casters casting Magic Missile can still take out a 20th level Wizard in round one if many of them win initiative and he has no protection up against it before combat. Veril's chart indicates that the 20th level Wizard is worth 72 such 5th level casters. Well, maybe he sometimes is. And, maybe not. I think Veril's ratio is too high. I don't think that the Sorcerer more than triples in power from level 3 to level 4 and doubles in power from level 5 to level 6. These ratios seem extreme. I do not think a caster ever doubles in power from one level to the next, even first level to second level. Spell level of the 10 highest level spells (making 0th level spells worth 0.5) + caster level yields (ignoring bonus spells which yields very little difference except at low level): [code] Level Cleric Wizard Mystic Thurge Sorcerer 1 4.5 3.5 4.5 6.5 2 7 6 7 9 3 12 9 12 10.5 4 15.5 12 13.5 16.5 5 21.5 17 15 19 6 26 22 17.5 27 7 33 27 22 31 8 36 33 29 39 9 44 39 34 43 10 50 45 41 51 11 57 51 46 55 12 60 57 53 63 13 68 63 58 67 14 74 69 65 75 15 81 75 70 79 16 84 81 76 87 17 92 87 81 91 18 98 93 86 99 19 101 98 90 103 20 105 102 97 106 [/code] Granted, this could be off as well. But, what I find interesting is that the Cleric and Sorcerer appear balanced with this. I suspect that the Specialized Wizard would appear balanced with those two as well, although slightly more powerful at higher level. The Wizard who is behind the Cleric and Sorcerer starts catching up at higher levels. But, the MT doesn't catch up. Note: I started the MT off as a Cleric and ended him as a Cleric. [/QUOTE]

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