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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Is Paragon Tier the "sweet spot" of 4E? And other ruminations on the tiers
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<blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 5591839" data-attributes="member: 63763"><p>Here's my opinion:</p><p> </p><p>1) They got heroic tier right pretty much out of the gate. The numbers at level 1 are pretty solid, and the rate of growth is pretty solid. Once players have played for a while, the single encounter/daily at level 1, and the need of 3 or 4 feats to solidify a character (you want to get the 'improve your class' feat, or the 'improve your race' feat, or the get a better weapon feat, the get better armor feat, etc, etc ...) so the earliest levels are sort of a race to the 'better' part. Level 1 is still fun, but things get better as you accumulate more 'stuff'.</p><p> </p><p>2) Paragon was when players hit their encounter attack power cap, and by the end they get their 4th and last daily attack power. The monsters <em>used</em> to start getting bad at this point, as the extrapolation of the improvement rate started to fall apart. PCs, outside of a few things like attack mod and defenses were doing fine but monsters were becoming useless sacks of HP. With the updates, the feat 'taxes' and redesigned monsters made paragon fun again, and is a good stable sweet spot. For 10 levels, you aren't getting more encounter attack powers, or daily attack powers, just trading up to better ones. You do get some new stuff (feats, utility powers, magic items), but with magic items, a lot is merely getting better versions of stuff you already have. The big thing that makes it "level 9, but cooler" is the paragon path stuff. The 'always on' level 11 and 16 features give your character a very unique twist, and everyone does something cool with action points. So the early/mid paragon is where the PCs are at their 'peak' more or less.</p><p> </p><p>For epic tier, they need to do what they've done for paragon tier in terms of reexamining the monters, updating them, creating support for it, etc, etc, etc. PCs are probably ok (but then, it's hard to really estimate that without knowing legitimate threats to put them up again). I know there are cool powers and epic destinies that make me WANT to play epic tier, but monster/encounter/adventure design for the 'end game' is lacking.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WalterKovacs, post: 5591839, member: 63763"] Here's my opinion: 1) They got heroic tier right pretty much out of the gate. The numbers at level 1 are pretty solid, and the rate of growth is pretty solid. Once players have played for a while, the single encounter/daily at level 1, and the need of 3 or 4 feats to solidify a character (you want to get the 'improve your class' feat, or the 'improve your race' feat, or the get a better weapon feat, the get better armor feat, etc, etc ...) so the earliest levels are sort of a race to the 'better' part. Level 1 is still fun, but things get better as you accumulate more 'stuff'. 2) Paragon was when players hit their encounter attack power cap, and by the end they get their 4th and last daily attack power. The monsters [i]used[/i] to start getting bad at this point, as the extrapolation of the improvement rate started to fall apart. PCs, outside of a few things like attack mod and defenses were doing fine but monsters were becoming useless sacks of HP. With the updates, the feat 'taxes' and redesigned monsters made paragon fun again, and is a good stable sweet spot. For 10 levels, you aren't getting more encounter attack powers, or daily attack powers, just trading up to better ones. You do get some new stuff (feats, utility powers, magic items), but with magic items, a lot is merely getting better versions of stuff you already have. The big thing that makes it "level 9, but cooler" is the paragon path stuff. The 'always on' level 11 and 16 features give your character a very unique twist, and everyone does something cool with action points. So the early/mid paragon is where the PCs are at their 'peak' more or less. For epic tier, they need to do what they've done for paragon tier in terms of reexamining the monters, updating them, creating support for it, etc, etc, etc. PCs are probably ok (but then, it's hard to really estimate that without knowing legitimate threats to put them up again). I know there are cool powers and epic destinies that make me WANT to play epic tier, but monster/encounter/adventure design for the 'end game' is lacking. [/QUOTE]
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Is Paragon Tier the "sweet spot" of 4E? And other ruminations on the tiers
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