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<blockquote data-quote="Riastlin" data-source="post: 5591910" data-attributes="member: 94022">I definitely feel like heroic tier was pretty good right out of the gate.&nbsp; The monster problems were never really all that prevalent in heroic tier (much more so in paragon and epic) and PCs got a nice little scale up in overall ability.&nbsp; I personally have always felt as though PCs really started to get &quot;comfortable&quot; at level 5.&nbsp; The second daily becomes huge and gives the group a lot more survivability.&nbsp; Almost all of the PC deaths I've seen personally were before the party hit level 5.&nbsp; The game I am currently running just hit 13th level (which is the highest I've seen in actual play).&nbsp; Paragon tier has definitely brought in a &quot;fresh start&quot; feel to the game and it feels as though it has injected new life into the campaign.&nbsp; Part of this is the multitude of new options for the players, part of it is I've been using more of the updated damage expressions, part of it is just new tricks that the monsters have, and finally, part is that my player roster has finally stabilized into a good group size.&nbsp; Obviously the last part has nothing to do with the tier system.Looking ahead to epic, the big problem I see is pretty much what [MENTION=78116]Aegeri[/MENTION] mentions.&nbsp; Not enough monsters and not enough advice, samples, for DMs running epic.&nbsp; In particular, there are way too many solos in epic tier.&nbsp; [MENTION=1266]Abraxas[/MENTION] mentions too many &quot;screw you&quot; powers on monsters in epic and I think there is some truth to that.&nbsp; The thing is, most of those powers need to be placed on solos to make them a threat, but they don't need to be placed on standard monsters to make the encounters challenging.&nbsp; After all, stunning a solo is like stunning 4-5 regular monsters.&nbsp; Solos have definitely seen a lot of attention lately, and rightly so, but now we need to start taking a look at standard monsters too.Overall, I think 4ed starts to hit its sweet spot at level 5.&nbsp; By level 13 it really hasn't left it.&nbsp; The thing that keeps me hopeful is that if they do figure out epic tier, I think that sweet spot might not never go away and in a sense the entire spectrum will feel like a sweet spot because I think a level 1 adventurer should feel a bit fragile.&nbsp; I do have to agree though that 4ed is hard to start out at anything other than a relatively low level.&nbsp; Players really do need to see how their powers work and interact with each other.&nbsp; Starting at paragon will almost assuredly cause a player some amount of a learning curve.&nbsp; Ironically, as my players just hit 13th, and realized they have to drop an encounter power to get a new one, none of them batted an eye at that.&nbsp; They realize they don't need another encounter power and that more powers would just bog it down that much more.&nbsp; When 4ed first came out most of us thought &quot;that sucks&quot; when we saw you had to drop powers at higher levels.&nbsp; Now, we're glad.Finally, I just want to add that solos are really in a good spot now if you follow the recent advice in assorted articles, blogs, etc.&nbsp; In our last session, the ranger (and rest of party) chased the fleeing bad guy up to the roof of the tower.&nbsp; The ranger won initiative and opened up with an AP, dealing out 112 damage.&nbsp; &quot;Bloodied?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Nope&quot; I responded.&nbsp; Then the bad guy acted, the players looked at the map and saw no other critters and went &quot;Oh crap.&quot;&nbsp; A year or so ago they wouldn't have even batted an eye.&nbsp; They would have been relieved to see a solo.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Riastlin, post: 5591910, member: 94022"] I definitely feel like heroic tier was pretty good right out of the gate. The monster problems were never really all that prevalent in heroic tier (much more so in paragon and epic) and PCs got a nice little scale up in overall ability. I personally have always felt as though PCs really started to get "comfortable" at level 5. The second daily becomes huge and gives the group a lot more survivability. Almost all of the PC deaths I've seen personally were before the party hit level 5. The game I am currently running just hit 13th level (which is the highest I've seen in actual play). Paragon tier has definitely brought in a "fresh start" feel to the game and it feels as though it has injected new life into the campaign. Part of this is the multitude of new options for the players, part of it is I've been using more of the updated damage expressions, part of it is just new tricks that the monsters have, and finally, part is that my player roster has finally stabilized into a good group size. Obviously the last part has nothing to do with the tier system. Looking ahead to epic, the big problem I see is pretty much what [MENTION=78116]Aegeri[/MENTION] mentions. Not enough monsters and not enough advice, samples, for DMs running epic. In particular, there are way too many solos in epic tier. [MENTION=1266]Abraxas[/MENTION] mentions too many "screw you" powers on monsters in epic and I think there is some truth to that. The thing is, most of those powers need to be placed on solos to make them a threat, but they don't need to be placed on standard monsters to make the encounters challenging. After all, stunning a solo is like stunning 4-5 regular monsters. Solos have definitely seen a lot of attention lately, and rightly so, but now we need to start taking a look at standard monsters too. Overall, I think 4ed starts to hit its sweet spot at level 5. By level 13 it really hasn't left it. The thing that keeps me hopeful is that if they do figure out epic tier, I think that sweet spot might not never go away and in a sense the entire spectrum will feel like a sweet spot because I think a level 1 adventurer should feel a bit fragile. I do have to agree though that 4ed is hard to start out at anything other than a relatively low level. Players really do need to see how their powers work and interact with each other. Starting at paragon will almost assuredly cause a player some amount of a learning curve. Ironically, as my players just hit 13th, and realized they have to drop an encounter power to get a new one, none of them batted an eye at that. They realize they don't need another encounter power and that more powers would just bog it down that much more. When 4ed first came out most of us thought "that sucks" when we saw you had to drop powers at higher levels. Now, we're glad. Finally, I just want to add that solos are really in a good spot now if you follow the recent advice in assorted articles, blogs, etc. In our last session, the ranger (and rest of party) chased the fleeing bad guy up to the roof of the tower. The ranger won initiative and opened up with an AP, dealing out 112 damage. "Bloodied?" "Nope" I responded. Then the bad guy acted, the players looked at the map and saw no other critters and went "Oh crap." A year or so ago they wouldn't have even batted an eye. They would have been relieved to see a solo. [/QUOTE]

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