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Is "Passive" (for Passive Perception) really the right term??
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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 8703035" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>I've spent a lot of time on figuring out how this all works because it actually requires pulling a lot of rules together from different places that can sometimes seem at odds with each other. And the designers don't help because what they say they do is actually not something you can actually derive from the words on the page. Jeremy "Shield Master" Crawford, for example, sometimes refers to "active checks" when those don't actually exist in the rules. Nor does "passive" refer to the characters acting in a way that is not active, since passive checks are used when the characters when the characters are performing a task repeatedly (or when the DM wants a secret roll for some reason).</p><p></p><p>To make it work with all rules that connect with passive Perception, the players establish when appropriate what the characters are doing while they are traveling through an adventure area - keeping watch for threats, foraging, tracking, drawing a map, or navigating. These are in the Activities While Traveling rules, and "travel" spans the scale of minutes to hours to days. They only get to do one of these things unless they are a ranger in favored terrain (for an hour or more) in which case they can keep watch for threats and one other task. The DM can add more tasks to this list as well e.g. searching for secret doors or searching for traps. The characters also need to be in the right position in the marching order to have a chance of success - a character in the back of the party might not notice the trap the group is approaching. If the DM needs to resolve the task because there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure, they can use a passive check.</p><p></p><p>If a character is not keeping watch for threats, their passive Perception does not apply to detecting any hidden threats that may arise. So in comes the Surprise rules: If your PP can't apply, then by the rules, you're automatically surprised. Players who want to forage, track, draw a map, navigate, or do any other task the DM deems sufficiently distracting from keeping watch for threats, then they are making a meaningful choice here: Do I gain whatever potential benefit from doing this task and risk surprise or do I want to have a shot at avoiding surprise?</p><p></p><p>Now comes stuff like the Observant feat which used to be much maligned on forums for being too strong. In the context of the above rules, however, what we see is that Observant is going to help, but you must be in the right position keeping watch (or searching for secret doors or traps, if the DM says those tasks are distracting) and you can't do anything else. That may mean being in the front rank of the marching order to notice monsters and traps the party is approaching, which is dangerous, and passing up opportunities to gain useful benefits from other tasks. If the DM lumps monster, trap, and secret door detection into one activity while traveling, however, without regard to position in the marching order, plus allows for them to do other activities, then yeah Observant starts to look overpowered to some DMs. (So don't do that.)</p><p></p><p>In the DMG, it looks like many traps can be detected through Intelligence (Investigation) in addition to Wisdom (Perception), so either of those might apply to resolving that task. So Observant helps here, too. Again, if the character is looking for traps and is in the right position of the marching order to notice them before it is too late. For secret doors, it's Perception to find them, Investigation to figure out how they work (if that's in doubt and there's a meaningful consequence for failure).</p><p></p><p>That's basically all the applicable rules here that are likely to come up in a game outside of initiative and how they work together as I see it. In combat, sure, passive Perception is a "floor" for detecting a hidden creature because, per the rules, you're always alert to danger when in combat so passive applies and rolling under that number means nothing during a Search action since your passive already failed to detect the hidden creature. Outside of combat, I don't see the "floor" ruling applying at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 8703035, member: 97077"] I've spent a lot of time on figuring out how this all works because it actually requires pulling a lot of rules together from different places that can sometimes seem at odds with each other. And the designers don't help because what they say they do is actually not something you can actually derive from the words on the page. Jeremy "Shield Master" Crawford, for example, sometimes refers to "active checks" when those don't actually exist in the rules. Nor does "passive" refer to the characters acting in a way that is not active, since passive checks are used when the characters when the characters are performing a task repeatedly (or when the DM wants a secret roll for some reason). To make it work with all rules that connect with passive Perception, the players establish when appropriate what the characters are doing while they are traveling through an adventure area - keeping watch for threats, foraging, tracking, drawing a map, or navigating. These are in the Activities While Traveling rules, and "travel" spans the scale of minutes to hours to days. They only get to do one of these things unless they are a ranger in favored terrain (for an hour or more) in which case they can keep watch for threats and one other task. The DM can add more tasks to this list as well e.g. searching for secret doors or searching for traps. The characters also need to be in the right position in the marching order to have a chance of success - a character in the back of the party might not notice the trap the group is approaching. If the DM needs to resolve the task because there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure, they can use a passive check. If a character is not keeping watch for threats, their passive Perception does not apply to detecting any hidden threats that may arise. So in comes the Surprise rules: If your PP can't apply, then by the rules, you're automatically surprised. Players who want to forage, track, draw a map, navigate, or do any other task the DM deems sufficiently distracting from keeping watch for threats, then they are making a meaningful choice here: Do I gain whatever potential benefit from doing this task and risk surprise or do I want to have a shot at avoiding surprise? Now comes stuff like the Observant feat which used to be much maligned on forums for being too strong. In the context of the above rules, however, what we see is that Observant is going to help, but you must be in the right position keeping watch (or searching for secret doors or traps, if the DM says those tasks are distracting) and you can't do anything else. That may mean being in the front rank of the marching order to notice monsters and traps the party is approaching, which is dangerous, and passing up opportunities to gain useful benefits from other tasks. If the DM lumps monster, trap, and secret door detection into one activity while traveling, however, without regard to position in the marching order, plus allows for them to do other activities, then yeah Observant starts to look overpowered to some DMs. (So don't do that.) In the DMG, it looks like many traps can be detected through Intelligence (Investigation) in addition to Wisdom (Perception), so either of those might apply to resolving that task. So Observant helps here, too. Again, if the character is looking for traps and is in the right position of the marching order to notice them before it is too late. For secret doors, it's Perception to find them, Investigation to figure out how they work (if that's in doubt and there's a meaningful consequence for failure). That's basically all the applicable rules here that are likely to come up in a game outside of initiative and how they work together as I see it. In combat, sure, passive Perception is a "floor" for detecting a hidden creature because, per the rules, you're always alert to danger when in combat so passive applies and rolling under that number means nothing during a Search action since your passive already failed to detect the hidden creature. Outside of combat, I don't see the "floor" ruling applying at all. [/QUOTE]
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Is "Passive" (for Passive Perception) really the right term??
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