Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7629641" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>The "simulation" angle got reversed at some point, I think. It stopped being about simulating something that was out there that you could check against for accuracy (like checking your combat rules against SCA re-enactment, or checking your magic rules against RL beliefs in the supernatural or how magic worked in myth/legend/fiction), but, rather, became a matter of treating the game /as/ a simulation of something, /defined wholly & only by how the game simulated it/.</p><p></p><p>So, hps weren't unrealistic, high level fighters could just take an axe to the face and it'd barely break their skin, /because they had a lotta hps/. You could perform experiments (I mean, a Dr. Mengele type could) in the fantasy world and derive the existence of hit points, the damage dice of weapons, and so forth, scientifically, from the results.</p><p></p><p>That was a method more than a goal. The goals were probably varied. But, one thing 4e did was model fiction, fantasy, yes, but even the broader, cinematic 'action' genres. It was really rather pervasive. Thus, surges, 'powers' that recharged with each scene (short rest/encounter), genre bits - like all the mooks surrounding the Big Damn Hero charging him one at a time to be cut down in an entertainingly-choreographed manner - were given the force of rules, and 'off camera' stuff being hand waved and glossed over instead of meticulously accounted for.</p><p></p><p> Early wargames really were simulations, they were training tools for or hypothetical alternatives to actual war. But the wargaming hobby were people playing games, so they were already a compromise between the concerns of a game - fairness, fun, playability, etc - and the concerns of a simulation - accuracy, completeness, fidelity. D&D, 'simulating' the un-real, naturally slid more towards game...</p><p></p><p>And, TT gaming, in general has been in a renaissance of sorts since oh, 2012 or 14 or so.</p><p> I see it a little differently, though I still see 5e as a great accomplishment: 5e balanced acceptability to it's most vocal old guard, with accessibility to new players. Thus, new players, drawn to it by nerd-chic, history of the 80s fad, and the TT renaissance weren't put off by violent nerdraging & book burning all over the internet (unlike 4e); and, having tried it, found it something they could actually play and comprehend without too steep learning curve (unlike 3e) or deciphering & fixing up the rules (unlike 1e), so long as the DM was up to the challenge (very much like 1e).</p><p></p><p>The other major thing 5e did was return to the classic game's faith in the DM: the DM /is/ the game, he has total control, final responsibility, ultimate authority. DM Empowerment, in 5e is intentional, in the classic game, it was a necessity.</p><p></p><p>It would have to be launched into the teeth of the worst recession since the Great Depression, with sales goals double the total of the entire industry, intimately linked to vaporware, and attacked with rabid, unceasing nerdrage by it's most ardent fans, even to the point of burning books on youtube and accosting customers at game stores.</p><p></p><p>There is just no way PF2 could live down to the 4e legacy of horror. </p><p></p><p>But, if it fails commercially? </p><p>Could be a fair metaphor.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7629641, member: 996"] The "simulation" angle got reversed at some point, I think. It stopped being about simulating something that was out there that you could check against for accuracy (like checking your combat rules against SCA re-enactment, or checking your magic rules against RL beliefs in the supernatural or how magic worked in myth/legend/fiction), but, rather, became a matter of treating the game /as/ a simulation of something, /defined wholly & only by how the game simulated it/. So, hps weren't unrealistic, high level fighters could just take an axe to the face and it'd barely break their skin, /because they had a lotta hps/. You could perform experiments (I mean, a Dr. Mengele type could) in the fantasy world and derive the existence of hit points, the damage dice of weapons, and so forth, scientifically, from the results. That was a method more than a goal. The goals were probably varied. But, one thing 4e did was model fiction, fantasy, yes, but even the broader, cinematic 'action' genres. It was really rather pervasive. Thus, surges, 'powers' that recharged with each scene (short rest/encounter), genre bits - like all the mooks surrounding the Big Damn Hero charging him one at a time to be cut down in an entertainingly-choreographed manner - were given the force of rules, and 'off camera' stuff being hand waved and glossed over instead of meticulously accounted for. Early wargames really were simulations, they were training tools for or hypothetical alternatives to actual war. But the wargaming hobby were people playing games, so they were already a compromise between the concerns of a game - fairness, fun, playability, etc - and the concerns of a simulation - accuracy, completeness, fidelity. D&D, 'simulating' the un-real, naturally slid more towards game... And, TT gaming, in general has been in a renaissance of sorts since oh, 2012 or 14 or so. I see it a little differently, though I still see 5e as a great accomplishment: 5e balanced acceptability to it's most vocal old guard, with accessibility to new players. Thus, new players, drawn to it by nerd-chic, history of the 80s fad, and the TT renaissance weren't put off by violent nerdraging & book burning all over the internet (unlike 4e); and, having tried it, found it something they could actually play and comprehend without too steep learning curve (unlike 3e) or deciphering & fixing up the rules (unlike 1e), so long as the DM was up to the challenge (very much like 1e). The other major thing 5e did was return to the classic game's faith in the DM: the DM /is/ the game, he has total control, final responsibility, ultimate authority. DM Empowerment, in 5e is intentional, in the classic game, it was a necessity. It would have to be launched into the teeth of the worst recession since the Great Depression, with sales goals double the total of the entire industry, intimately linked to vaporware, and attacked with rabid, unceasing nerdrage by it's most ardent fans, even to the point of burning books on youtube and accosting customers at game stores. There is just no way PF2 could live down to the 4e legacy of horror. But, if it fails commercially? Could be a fair metaphor. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
Top