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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7629840" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Assuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age. And as best I can tell typical 3E/PF <em>and</em> typical 5e play is either what The Forge would call "high concept simulationionism" or what it would call "gamism".</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that there may not be interesting differences in these systems. Just that they don't really speak to GNS distinctions as those terms were used by The Forge.</p><p></p><p>EDITed to add:</p><p></p><p>I thinkAssuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age. And as best I can tell typical 3E/PF <em>and</em> typical 5e play is either what The Forge would call "high concept simulationionism" or what it would call "gamism".</p><p></p><p>That's not to say that there may not be interesting differences in these systems. Just that they don't really speak to GNS distinctions as those terms were used by The Forge.</p><p></p><p>EDITed to add:</p><p></p><p>I think there are some systems which produce player characters which have a "concept", an easily-discernible fictional nature or schtick, independently of how the character is played. AD&D aspires to this, even with at least some of its class names - we have paladins, rangers, thieves, assassins, druids, martial arts monks, etc - although in play they can sometimes fail to deliver what they promise (qv thieves, monks).</p><p></p><p>My sense is that 5e not only aspires to this but generally achieves it.</p><p></p><p>Whereas in 4e, at least as I've experienced, it's often the case that you don't really know what a character can do - what his/her "concept" is - until you see the character in play. That's not to deny that someone with enough experience (of 4e, and of RPGs in general) to have a good mechanical imagination won't be able to imaginatively project from reading a stat block - but I don't think a newbie can easily do that.</p><p></p><p>I think this difference between 4e and 5e is not a trivial one. Eg it makes 4e pretty hopeless for "high concept simulationism" RPGing, which - by my estimate - is the single most popular approach to RPGing, and maybe by quite a big margin.</p><p></p><p>(There's oversimplification here - 4e non-combat works very differently from 4e combat and is closer to "archetype-driven" - but the rules aren't good at explaining how and I think there are many RPGers fro whom the ways in which they're different, and the reasons why, are not terribly intuitive. And because of skill challenges it's still pretty terrible for high concept simulationism)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7629840, member: 42582"] Assuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age. And as best I can tell typical 3E/PF [I]and[/I] typical 5e play is either what The Forge would call "high concept simulationionism" or what it would call "gamism". That's not to say that there may not be interesting differences in these systems. Just that they don't really speak to GNS distinctions as those terms were used by The Forge. EDITed to add: I thinkAssuming you're using GNS more-or-less as The Forge does, then there's no interesting difference between 4e and 13th Age. And as best I can tell typical 3E/PF [I]and[/I] typical 5e play is either what The Forge would call "high concept simulationionism" or what it would call "gamism". That's not to say that there may not be interesting differences in these systems. Just that they don't really speak to GNS distinctions as those terms were used by The Forge. EDITed to add: I think there are some systems which produce player characters which have a "concept", an easily-discernible fictional nature or schtick, independently of how the character is played. AD&D aspires to this, even with at least some of its class names - we have paladins, rangers, thieves, assassins, druids, martial arts monks, etc - although in play they can sometimes fail to deliver what they promise (qv thieves, monks). My sense is that 5e not only aspires to this but generally achieves it. Whereas in 4e, at least as I've experienced, it's often the case that you don't really know what a character can do - what his/her "concept" is - until you see the character in play. That's not to deny that someone with enough experience (of 4e, and of RPGs in general) to have a good mechanical imagination won't be able to imaginatively project from reading a stat block - but I don't think a newbie can easily do that. I think this difference between 4e and 5e is not a trivial one. Eg it makes 4e pretty hopeless for "high concept simulationism" RPGing, which - by my estimate - is the single most popular approach to RPGing, and maybe by quite a big margin. (There's oversimplification here - 4e non-combat works very differently from 4e combat and is closer to "archetype-driven" - but the rules aren't good at explaining how and I think there are many RPGers fro whom the ways in which they're different, and the reasons why, are not terribly intuitive. And because of skill challenges it's still pretty terrible for high concept simulationism) [/QUOTE]
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